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DCS
4/19/2018 5:46pm,
Maybe you are aware of famous BJJ instructor John Danaher has banned, amongst other takedowns, Tani Otoshi in his classes for he considers it too dangerous.

(source: https://www.bjjee.com/articles/3-techniques-john-danaher-bannes-classes/)

Do you guys think this one...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAiSMK2qygk

deserves to be on Danaher's list?

Raycetpfl
4/19/2018 6:35pm,
Maybe you are aware of famous BJJ instructor John Danaher has banned, amongst other takedowns, Tani Otoshi in his classes for he considers it too dangerous.

(source: https://www.bjjee.com/articles/3-techniques-john-danaher-bannes-classes/)

Do you guys think this one...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAiSMK2qygk

deserves to be on Danaher's list?

It doesnt seem to have the same risk of crashing into the side of the knee as a bungled tani otoshi.

submessenger
4/19/2018 6:46pm,
I get that there's probably an element of surprise that drives the fear, (and a degree of cleanness with the demo version) but I think I'd rather be thrown by that than a number of others, too many to choose. This looks pretty gentle, and relatively safe. Am I missing something?

BKR
4/19/2018 7:07pm,
Maybe you are aware of famous BJJ instructor John Danaher has banned, amongst other takedowns, Tani Otoshi in his classes for he considers it too dangerous.

(source: https://www.bjjee.com/articles/3-techniques-john-danaher-bannes-classes/)

Do you guys think this one...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAiSMK2qygk

deserves to be on Danaher's list?

Its not as "dangerous" looking as Kani Basami or Tani Otoshi.

I think the primary danger of throws in BJJ are crappy mats, and crappy ukemi waza. Same for Judo, but often the mats are better and more ukemi is practiced.

I don't typically teach Tani Otoshi to kids, nor beginners of any sort. It's not really necessary, and I've seen a lot of Tani Otoshi end up badly for uke.


*edit*

The takedown in question does not look particularly effective unless uke is kind of cluelessly standing there. I wish they would show more of a full-speed type demo in a realistic situation.

Not saying it won't work, though.

Raycetpfl
4/19/2018 10:11pm,
Its not as "dangerous" looking as Kani Basami or Tani Otoshi.

I think the primary danger of throws in BJJ are crappy mats, and crappy ukemi waza. Same for Judo, but often the mats are better and more ukemi is practiced.

I don't typically teach Tani Otoshi to kids, nor beginners of any sort. It's not really necessary, and I've seen a lot of Tani Otoshi end up badly for uke.


*edit*

The takedown in question does not look particularly effective unless uke is kind of cluelessly standing there. I wish they would show more of a full-speed type demo in a realistic situation.

Not saying it won't work, though.

Just worked it tonight. It gets the Rayce stamp of approval. You kinda jump through their legs and pull them on top of you and then roll over. Its quite effective.

TheMightyMcClaw
4/19/2018 11:03pm,
Really? -Tani- Otoshi? Never struck me as super dangerous.
Are you sure it wasn't a typo and he banned -Tai- Otoshi? Because I've seen waaaaay too many people get injured with that one. High ranks, low ranks, Tai Otoshi comes for us all to reap it's harvest of injuries.

Raycetpfl
4/20/2018 9:17am,
Really? -Tani- Otoshi? Never struck me as super dangerous.
Are you sure it wasn't a typo and he banned -Tai- Otoshi? Because I've seen waaaaay too many people get injured with that one. High ranks, low ranks, Tai Otoshi comes for us all to reap it's harvest of injuries.

Tani otoshi performed wrong is a shitty flying leg scissors. I use to feel the same way..... and then over the years I watched the body count pile up.
It snaps knee ligaments. You're supposed to go away from your opponent at about a 45 degree angle but beginners get it wrong and go straight into them and then other begginers stand with locked out knees while being thrown.....and then........ they are on crutches.

DCS
4/20/2018 9:20am,
Really? -Tani- Otoshi? Never struck me as super dangerous.
Are you sure it wasn't a typo and he banned -Tai- Otoshi?

Almost 100% sure.

DCS
4/20/2018 9:22am,
Just worked it tonight. It gets the Rayce stamp of approval. You kinda jump through their legs and pull them on top of you and then roll over. Its quite effective.

It's a common takedown in our club and to date no one has been injured AFAIK, but I wanted other informed opinions.

Ulsteryank
4/20/2018 10:25am,
We do the takedown in the vid often at our MMA club, with no injuries. I'd like to know the proper term because everyone just calls it a 'barrel roll.'

I saw a demo of why Danahar banned Tani Otoshi where a girl had her knee wrecked, but in that vid it just looked like a sloppy what we'd call a sit down leg trip, so don't know if it's a typo as said? I use it a lot, but have seen people injured when instead of sitting down at a 90 angle and pulling their partner into the empty space, they kind of pull them on top of themselves and twist. We actually just did it last night in my BJJ club as an alternative to the self technique against a rear bear hug(gotta love those) for those with heavier opponents to lift.

I'd like to know the proper Japanese terms for all these since I took it in high school for 4 years and feel like a dick!

BKR
4/20/2018 10:42am,
Just worked it tonight. It gets the Rayce stamp of approval. You kinda jump through their legs and pull them on top of you and then roll over. Its quite effective.

It reminds me of a sweep of some sort on the ground, or maybe it was a turtle turn I saw some place once upon a time ?

Unfortunately, it's illegal under current common judo comp rules, in stand-up anyway.

BKR
4/20/2018 10:46am,
Really? -Tani- Otoshi? Never struck me as super dangerous.
Are you sure it wasn't a typo and he banned -Tai- Otoshi? Because I've seen waaaaay too many people get injured with that one. High ranks, low ranks, Tai Otoshi comes for us all to reap it's harvest of injuries.

No, it's Tani Otoshi.

It's not super-dangerous when done with reasonable skill and control.

The problem is that for some reason people think that little kids and white belts need to do it so they can counter-throw and win matches easily.

As Rayce points out, people turn it into kind of a bass-ackwards leg scissors/lay on a guys knee and pull him over it with your bodyweight kind of "throw", and injuries ensue. Plus dropping uke on their head.


*edit*

I usually will teach Tani Otoshi at around sankyu (green belt) level for teenagers. Most of them never really take a liking to the throw either as counter or direct attack, and I don't emphasize it as a counter throw.

I have one nikyu (blue belt) who is quite good at it, but mostly off of the twitch (reversal from feint to forward throw), but he does it as a counter sometimes.

As a counter, the issue usually is that at better levels of Judo, it's not so common to see a committed attack unless uke is outgripped/positioned somehow. That's why kids use it effectively, because they just go at it with not much if any concern for being countered.

I think Tani Otoshi is an old throw that originally was done from defensive posture, possibly while grappling in armor (in Japan, at least).
Because Mifune...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLKT_ZkVl6w

Anyway, general stuff from Kodokan...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nC1O0pKQEQ

BKR
4/20/2018 10:51am,
We do the takedown in the vid often at our MMA club, with no injuries. I'd like to know the proper term because everyone just calls it a 'barrel roll.'

I saw a demo of why Danahar banned Tani Otoshi where a girl had her knee wrecked, but in that vid it just looked like a sloppy what we'd call a sit down leg trip, so don't know if it's a typo as said? I use it a lot, but have seen people injured when instead of sitting down at a 90 angle and pulling their partner into the empty space, they kind of pull them on top of themselves and twist. We actually just did it last night in my BJJ club as an alternative to the self technique against a rear bear hug(gotta love those) for those with heavier opponents to lift.

I'd like to know the proper Japanese terms for all these since I took it in high school for 4 years and feel like a dick!

You give a good description of one of the things that can go wrong with Tani Otoshi (Valley Drop).

It's more an issue of the skill level of the person throwing (tori) than inherent danger of the throw, plus how it is instructed.

DCS
4/20/2018 11:42am,
We do the takedown in the vid often at our MMA club, with no injuries. I'd like to know the proper term because everyone just calls it a 'barrel roll.'
Ushiro otoshi guruma.

(not serious)

AcerTempest
4/20/2018 1:44pm,
We do the takedown in the vid often at our MMA club, with no injuries. I'd like to know the proper term because everyone just calls it a 'barrel roll.'

I saw a demo of why Danahar banned Tani Otoshi where a girl had her knee wrecked, but in that vid it just looked like a sloppy what we'd call a sit down leg trip, so don't know if it's a typo as said? I use it a lot, but have seen people injured when instead of sitting down at a 90 angle and pulling their partner into the empty space, they kind of pull them on top of themselves and twist. We actually just did it last night in my BJJ club as an alternative to the self technique against a rear bear hug(gotta love those) for those with heavier opponents to lift.

I'd like to know the proper Japanese terms for all these since I took it in high school for 4 years and feel like a dick!

Since you asked, it's a Yoko Guruma variant.
I can't find a link to the particular entry you guys are using, but here is the classical form.

You can see it's the same throw hit from a different angle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cTnl6rB82k

Gumby
4/22/2018 1:59am,
I don't think Tani Otoshi should be banned... just shitty tani otoshis...

Interesting this topic was brought up, as I've got a guy trying to throw it in my club. I had to stop him and correct him because hes going straight in to his opponents knee rather than dropping down/behind it.

Don't let jiu jitsu guys and their shitty execution of takedowns be a damper to the rest of us....