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Guird
1/24/2018 5:15am,
SEARCH FUNKSHO- no hear me out, I know how you're supposed to counter someone grabbing a lapel choke when they're in your guard, in principle. For years I regarded it as a gift - a non-threat that leads to an easy armbar. Countered it tons of times when noobs tried it. I've read the other threads, which are full of answers along the lines of ' just armbar them, duh'.

Recently however, I've sparred with a few seasoned judoka, and it's a different matter when they apply it. The three things that make it more difficult are

1: substantial top pressure pinning my shoulders to the mat, making it hard to spin for the armbar and
2: if I do manage to spin and attack one arm, the other arm crosses my throat. Due to the aforementioned pressure, this makes it difficult to launch my hips into the armbar, and maintains the choke
3: the flaring motion of the elbows makes it harder to attack the arm and get my leg over. This I could normally get around, but it exacerbates and is exacerbated by the other two issues

I realize I could try and launch my attack before the second grip is established, but I'd prefer an approach that doesn't rely on simply being faster.
has anyone else had a similar struggle? Are there any specific tips for this? Is there a particular aspect of my armbars that I need to improve on? Do I, instead, need to work on my guard in general, to deny them the posture to apply effective pressure?

Thanks!

Edit: Oops! wrong section, I meant to put this in basic and misc

Falenay
1/24/2018 7:33am,
As a judoka with as little as 17 years of experience (which is laughable compared to the more prolific judoka here), I have three thoughts on that:

a) What you describe is something I tend to experience with guys who are bigger and/or stronger than me.

b) For guys that are bigger and stronger than you, it is dangerous to let them get that near without gaining immediate superior control over the neck or shoulder (preferable: diagonal control). Simple lapel chokes can be offered as a threat to let them push you away so that there is space for an armbar, but it is risky. And strong judoka mostly just ignore levels of pressure where others retract.

c) In these situations, I aim for tight control before or, at the latest, moving into the guard. If I cannot get it, I aim for distance (hip, legs, back muscles) so that they cannot fold me into a package. Then it's time to wait for mistakes.

There was a time where we started training with 5 x 5 mins of ground game for a warmup. I was 16 rolling with black belts and massive guys with a yellow belt. It was like 1.5 years of learning how to survive and then slowly gaining initiative.

DCS
1/24/2018 7:36am,
Are you talking about the amassa pćo - tsukkomi jime?

Falenay
1/24/2018 7:56am,
Are you talking about the amassa pćo - tsukkomi jime?

From the description I assumed something like ebi-jime because of the cross-grabbing. May be totally on the wrong track there, though.

Guird
1/24/2018 8:22am,
Are you talking about the amassa pćo - tsukkomi jime?

haven't had any trouble from tsukkomi jime in my guard, though to be fair none of the judoka in question have attempted that one. It doesn't seem to me that I'd have the same difficulties with that technique. Lapel choke was the wrong term, my bad. - cross collar is more accurate. Palms down usually, which is how the forearm ends up across my throat when I go for the armbar. A google search names it juji jime.

Guird
1/24/2018 8:26am,
As a judoka with as little as 17 years of experience (which is laughable compared to the more prolific judoka here), I have three thoughts on that:

a) What you describe is something I tend to experience with guys who are bigger and/or stronger than me.

b) For guys that are bigger and stronger than you, it is dangerous to let them get that near without gaining immediate superior control over the neck or shoulder (preferable: diagonal control). Simple lapel chokes can be offered as a threat to let them push you away so that there is space for an armbar, but it is risky. And strong judoka mostly just ignore levels of pressure where others retract.

c) In these situations, I aim for tight control before or, at the latest, moving into the guard. If I cannot get it, I aim for distance (hip, legs, back muscles) so that they cannot fold me into a package. Then it's time to wait for mistakes.

There was a time where we started training with 5 x 5 mins of ground game for a warmup. I was 16 rolling with black belts and massive guys with a yellow belt. It was like 1.5 years of learning how to survive and then slowly gaining initiative.

Thanks! so you supect it's a more general weakness of my guard game?

DCS
1/24/2018 9:09am,
haven't had any trouble from tsukkomi jime in my guard, though to be fair none of the judoka in question have attempted that one. It doesn't seem to me that I'd have the same difficulties with that technique. Lapel choke was the wrong term, my bad. - cross collar is more accurate. Palms down usually, which is how the forearm ends up across my throat when I go for the armbar. A google search names it juji jime.

If you're getting cross collared by people inside your (closed?) guard then your partners are waaaay too big for you or your guard sucks.

Have you tried sweeping instead of going for armbars?

AcerTempest
1/24/2018 10:49am,
Ok, so a few things that come to mind here.

1. When they apply so much top pressure from inside your guard, you should be trying to compromise their structure and using your legs to control them. Quick question, what sort of guard are we talking about here? Closed guard? Open? Spider?

2. Who cares if the other arm crosses your throat? If you can spin to attack the arm and the other arm crosses your throat, dive for a flower sweep. That will effectively stop the choke once you are up top.

3. Push the elbows together. That stops the choke anyway if it is a cross choke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMQudoewa6U

This is a pretty good vid for this as well.

Also, are you sure it is a cross collar from closed guard and not this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-POmmN9jlY4

Just done from the top. I think in BJJ they call that an ezequiel choke. sp?
It is one of the few chokes that can work from ANY position. Judoka love it because of this. I don't have to worry about hierarchy of position, which takes too much time and gets the mate in tournaments. Of course, once you know it's coming, it's relatively easy to stop, but it CAN work from anywhere.

BKR
1/24/2018 11:53am,
SEARCH FUNKSHO- no hear me out, I know how you're supposed to counter someone grabbing a lapel choke when they're in your guard, in principle. For years I regarded it as a gift - a non-threat that leads to an easy armbar. Countered it tons of times when noobs tried it. I've read the other threads, which are full of answers along the lines of ' just armbar them, duh'.

Recently however, I've sparred with a few seasoned judoka, and it's a different matter when they apply it. The three things that make it more difficult are

1: substantial top pressure pinning my shoulders to the mat, making it hard to spin for the armbar and
2: if I do manage to spin and attack one arm, the other arm crosses my throat. Due to the aforementioned pressure, this makes it difficult to launch my hips into the armbar, and maintains the choke
3: the flaring motion of the elbows makes it harder to attack the arm and get my leg over. This I could normally get around, but it exacerbates and is exacerbated by the other two issues

I realize I could try and launch my attack before the second grip is established, but I'd prefer an approach that doesn't rely on simply being faster.
has anyone else had a similar struggle? Are there any specific tips for this? Is there a particular aspect of my armbars that I need to improve on? Do I, instead, need to work on my guard in general, to deny them the posture to apply effective pressure?

Thanks!
Edit: Oops! wrong section, I meant to put this in basic and misc

So I read through the replies before posting to try not to be repetitive. I'm a blue belt in BJJ and a black belt in Judo, for perspective. An older, smaller guy with bad shoulders, for more perspective.
A lot of this is also influenced by my BJJ instructor, who is a 'get on top and stay on top' sort of guy, who does have a strong guard game, despite that preference. Works pretty well for judoka crossing over.

1.) First thing I thought is to just avoid closed guard in the first place, especially versus larger, stronger (and somewhat skilled, as in your judoka training partners). If they are larger than you and stronger, unless you have a very good closed guard system, you are going to get smashed. Judoka love to and are good at (the good ones anyway) applying top pressure, and as pointed out, don't really care about being uncomfortable while doing it. Closed guard tends to pin the guy on bottom in place versus someone who is exerting heavy and relatively correct top pressure.

2.) Don't be wedded to the idea that armbar from guard is the only solution to your problem. In fact, everybody knows it, and everybody knows how to escape/counter it, so it's probably not something you will just pop into versus a seasoned black belt judoka, or anybody above noob level in BJJ. You guard "game" may be OK for your level, you are just applying the less-optimal tool for the situation. You will have to apply a multilayered approach to getting to a dominant position.

3.) Multilayered approach: some have mentioned already to sweep, threaten armbar and sweep, threaten choke an sweep. I would add MOVE YOUR ASS instead of laying their with a person between your legs who dearly loves to crush you into the tatami, and knows you will try to armbar him, and doesn't care, because he knows he can avoid it. Lots of videos out there of those sorts of processes. Essentially, you need to be able to work out an action-reaction sequence. Hopefully your instructor is showing you that sort of process. If he's not, well...

4.) How the hell are you letting him get a hand in position for a cross-lapel choke (either Nami Juji Jime, Kata Juji Jime, or Gyaku Juji Jime, (both palms down, one up one down, and both up, respectively)? Grip fighting is a critical component of groundwork just as it is in stand-up grappling/throwing. You need to work for sleeve control if possible before your partner initiates any sort of attack. Two on one, arm drag, pistol grip, cat's paw, and a couple of others I can't really describe in writing. The guy on top should be working the same sort of thing, trying to pin down and control one of your hands. Denying your partner a two handed grip can be key to being able to work into position for a sweep/armbar/choke or to improve position/angle.

5.) As a smaller guy, who never really used closed guard anyway (being a judoka for 30+ years before taking up BJJ), I kind of skipped over closed guard, and really, avoid it if all possible, either on top or bottom. I train it, of course, but it's not my go to position, so you can take what I write with a grain of salt. You might want to consider opening up your "game", though, a bit. Of course, you may then get wrecked in the scramble with your black belt judoka buddies, because judoka tend to be pretty good at that as well (not all of them, of course). But it's better than being smashed for 5 minutes with a dude's forearm across your throat.

Oh, and it's closed elbows to make an effective cross-collar choke, not splayed...damned judoka...

DCS
1/24/2018 11:55am,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMQudoewa6U
This is a pretty good vid for this as well.

Slighty off topic but I don't consider the 3rd situation demonstrated, hugging the hips, a mistake itself. Uke is doing it wrong, but IMO and IME it is a legit position.

Guird
1/24/2018 3:25pm,
Thanks for all the helpful replies!
I'm talking closed guard, yes, and it is cross collar, not ezekiel. The flower sweep transition sounds like a nice one, I'll try it, thanks. My single-mindedness for the armbar probably obscures a lot of options I have each time. I came to regard the grips for cross collar in guard as such a non-threat that I'm not in the habit of contesting them, so that's probably also not helping. I'm thinking maybe I'm also not pressuring enough with the armpit-side leg, which might be responsible for the consistent pressure in the armbars, and will probably also hamper my flower-sweep efforts. I'll focus on that next time we drill armbars from guard.

I feel like my guard game has declined in the last year overall, so maybe I should ask people to practice that with me outside of regular hours. I've been too focused on improving my takedowns, and missing half of 2017 due to injury doesn't help.

AcerTempest
1/24/2018 4:19pm,
Slighty off topic but I don't consider the 3rd situation demonstrated, hugging the hips, a mistake itself. Uke is doing it wrong, but IMO and IME it is a legit position.

Kinda. The double under pass is valid. The, what I call the 'Climb the mountain' pass is valid. That's where you collapse his legs together, pop to one side, and climb up the guy hand over hand.


But just hugging the hips in a double overhook? I am not sure what someone would hope to accomplish from there.

If you have a vid of it being done to some great effect, I would love to see it.

BKR
1/24/2018 5:41pm,
Kinda. The double under pass is valid. The, what I call the 'Climb the mountain' pass is valid. That's where you collapse his legs together, pop to one side, and climb up the guy hand over hand.


But just hugging the hips in a double overhook? I am not sure what someone would hope to accomplish from there.

If you have a vid of it being done to some great effect, I would love to see it.

I couldn't make out exactly in the video what the guy on top was doing, exactly, hugging the hips. The only time I do it is as more of a defensive maneuver when I've had my posture broken and/or, my lower back is hurting/worn out from trying to maintain posture and break the legs open, etc. But I don't hug, I tuck my elbows back and try to get my hands solid below the belt and tucked in.

Not optimal, but it works OK at times.

cualltaigh
1/24/2018 5:58pm,
1: substantial top pressure pinning my shoulders to the mat, making it hard to spin for the armbar and
2: if I do manage to spin and attack one arm, the other arm crosses my throat. Due to the aforementioned pressure, this makes it difficult to launch my hips into the armbar, and maintains the choke
3: the flaring motion of the elbows makes it harder to attack the arm and get my leg over. This I could normally get around, but it exacerbates and is exacerbated by the other two issues


In this situation (particularly 2 & 3) I like to go for the omoplata (I like to go for the omoplata over an arm bar anyway, but that's not important at the moment).

The following is based on if someone is locking down on your hips but works just the same (probably even better) to someone stacking a cross choke with flared elbows:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOGbaXm3Htw

BKR
1/24/2018 6:00pm,
In this situation (particularly 2 & 3) I like to go for the omoplata (I like to go for the omoplata over an arm bar anyway, but that's not important at the moment).

The following is based on if someone is locking down on your hips but works just the same (probably even better) to someone stacking a cross choke with flared elbows:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOGbaXm3Htw

Yeah, makes sense, you get out from underneath end up in a much more flexible position than closed guard.

cualltaigh
1/24/2018 6:08pm,
Yeah, makes sense, you get out from underneath end up in a much more flexible position than closed guard.

Absolutely, and bigger guys tend to have less flexible shoulders so even if they defend the omoplata they give up their back (or crucifix if you're quick) or if they roll out there's a bicep crush, mount or mounted triangle for the taking.