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Onecardshort
5/21/2004 9:17am,
Just read the dim mak thing again and the repeated statement of how it worked on his students better than on unsuspecting joe public made me wonder. Do you think that any of the "rules" and "etiquette" most ma use in training (and even sparring) can potentially cause you more grief tha you realise.

Simple (and stupid) example, you're used to releasing a hold when tapped, could this lead you to let go when your really shouldn't.

Now ideally, training should remove these learned patterns of behaviour, but I know I'm still guilty and was hoping to hear others thought.

Deadpan Scientist
5/21/2004 10:02am,
Yes they can, but I don't think anyone is going to fall for the ol' tap to get out of an armbar on the street.

Onecardshort
5/21/2004 10:13am,
Said it was stupid example, I guess I was wondering more about whether if your opponent (lets leave it at one for now) was using a "style" you recognised, could that lead you into dangerous habits.

Colin
5/21/2004 10:15am,
It's not a bad idea though. If someone had the skills to tap you out - just doing the tap would probably have some effect on them. Probably not. Hell - if you were in that position pretty much anything would be worth a try, though.

*edit - typo*

Te No Kage!
5/21/2004 10:50am,
onecardshot brings up a valid point, the tapping can cause an autonomic response to let go. Sometimes during normal class and when we're training tantodori (knife take-aways) we will use a word to let go instead of tapping because it's easy to get stuck in that habit when tapping when in real life you don't want to let go, specifically in tanto dori because you'll get cut if you let go. I remember a fighter during the first Pride Bushido (I think it was Chris Brennan) where he had an armbar but let go too early before the ref broke it up because the guy was tapping but the refs couldn't see it. He went on to win the match anyways, but still, he just automatically let go because he thought that he was tapping.

on the other side of the coin, in naginata they tell us the only thing worse than fighting somebody who totally outmatches you is fighting somebody brand new and doesn't know anything because they will be unpredictable.

oni
5/21/2004 10:55am,
yeah, we do the keyword thing (apart from chokes obviously) and it changes from lesson to lesson. can end up with you shouting stupid things though...

TaeBo_Master
5/21/2004 11:08am,
But the advantage of a hold in ground grappling is that you usually have pretty good control over your opponent. So you've got the ability to take a brief pause to think without sacrifcing much, especially if you're already got a hold damn near locked in.

zenbert
5/21/2004 11:22am,
this dim mak thing reminds me of a busted radio that i had which worked when the temperature drops below a certain level but doesn't work most of the time...

Dochter
5/21/2004 12:13pm,
There is a story (probably apocryphal) about an aikido instructor who repeatedly dilled knife take aways with the same partner and after the take away always handed back the knife.
At some point on teh str33t a mugger pulled a knife. The aikidoka did a take away and automatically handed the knife back, fortunately the supposed mugger was freaked enough to decide that it would be best to take his leave.


Probably false but highlights the issue.

Niloc
5/21/2004 12:50pm,
Originally posted by Onecardshort
Simple (and stupid) example, you're used to releasing a hold when tapped, could this lead you to let go when your really shouldn't.

Now ideally, training should remove these learned patterns of behaviour, but I know I'm still guilty and was hoping to hear others thought.

Nope. At my job as a doorman, I had a guy wrapped up in a RNC and was walking him up the stairs towards the door. He was tapping my arm furiously the whole time and when I whipped him out into the street, he said "I was tapping out! You were supposed to let go!". I just laughed, turned and walked back down the stairs.

Punisher
5/21/2004 1:17pm,
This is one of the reason why, if you are properly trained to do them, chokes are more favorable to joint locks in a self-defense situation.

You slap and armlock on a guy and he starts screaming "OH GOD, YOU'RE BREAKING MY ARM PLEASE STOP!!!" You basically have 3 choices.

1. You let him go, hoping he's learned his lesson and won't come at you again.
2. Complete the lock and deal out a potential life changing injury to the guy and subject you to all the possible ramifications of do so.
3. Try to hold the guy there until help arrives. Hoping that "help" isn't a few of those guys buddies.

All that being said, if you choke a guy out you better know what exactly you are doing. As he's losing consiousness it's likely the guy is going to think you are killing him and it's probably going to look that bystanders. You better be damn sure you only held it enough end the situation and that the guy is going to wake up.

Niloc
5/22/2004 3:41am,
Originally posted by Punisher
This is one of the reason why, if you are properly trained to do them, chokes are more favorable to joint locks in a self-defense situation.

All that being said, if you choke a guy out you better know what exactly you are doing. As he's losing consiousness it's likely the guy is going to think you are killing him and it's probably going to look that bystanders. You better be damn sure you only held it enough end the situation and that the guy is going to wake up.

I agree with a lot of what you wrote. I usually cinch a choke really tight for a split second and then ease up on it a little. They know that you've got them in a tricky situation and walk. Besides, it's much easier to walk someone out of a bar than to drag their unconscious ass out of a bar.

Box Blast K.O.
5/22/2004 2:36pm,
Another advantage of a RNC would be that you could use your attacker as a human shield if any of his mates want to take a pop at you. So I've been told anyway.

Box Blast K.O.
5/22/2004 2:38pm,
If you had some one locked in t3h str33t, wouldn't you just go for the break striaght away?
Has anyone on here done this?