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David Burns
7/16/2017 2:36pm,
The soke of Yanagi Ryu is the direct descendant of Iwanaga Gennojo Masamitsu, and is still teaching in Kansai Japan. Don Angier and his style have no connection to the koryu Yanagi Ryu. Check out. Don Angier created a name for his own style that uses the name of an already existing koryu -- but the style Angier's people are teaching bears no resemblance to the true Koryu Yanagi Ryu which actually has a longer name Shin Getsu Muso Yanagi Ryu.

To clear up Don Angier i will say a few things.
I have personally trained with him, however my personal sensei was one of his top 3 students, who i was his solitary student for several years and recieved several hours of training at a time, not just mere 45 minute sessions shared with other students.
I received certification with Don Soke's signature.

I will clarify 2 things, First, Don's art is named Yoshida - Ha Shidareyanagi Ryu Aikijujutsu Bugei, NOT Yanagi Ryu. Yanagi is the Japanese word for "willow" and is common for multiple Aiki arts. Shidareyanagi is the Japanese word for "weeping willow." Yes they are different types of trees and different lineages and different MA's.

Second, Soke is a word of Anglo Saxon origin and means "legal jurisdiction," and during the shogun era it was applied to the clan leaders that passed down their authority through family lines. Shidareyanagi Ryu comes from the Yoshida family and was under a blood decendant of the Yoshida family until WW2 when the Soke was transported to California as a war refugee. The art was not allowed outside of family members, but the Soke had no family and Don begged him for training. The Soke ignored Don until he realized that there would be no heirs or family, so he drilled Don for endless hours until he learned the art and then to ensure there would be no problems with relatives back in Japan, he legaly adopted Don as his only son, and gifted him with the Soke responsibilities of the art. NO he did not change the art and did not use the title Soke to have fun (it is extremely fun!) But the title was granted purely with the understanding that it was the "RESPONSIBILITY" to preserve the art as it is.

Don was going to let the art die without a successor because he could not find a student that would keep the integrity without flavoring it with other styles. Nevertheless, before he died he eventually was able to train a relative named Jeremy, who was deemed worthy to inherit the "responsibility" of maintaining the pure art of Shidareyanagi Ryu (Ryu just means "style").

I will verify that it is a very difficult art that involves much focus and structural manipulation. During the begining of my training my feet hurt and not my wrists. It took months to learn to stand correctly and hold my feet in contorted positions before learning wrist locks.

It is not for the faint of heart and it is not for those who are unwilling to suffer through the boring stuff and being fed the fun stuff little by little.

It is also not for you. No disrespect, but it is only taught by invitation after research into a prospective student's background, with the exception of seminars that contain basic fun looking maneuvers or police training of basic takedowns for law enforcement purposes.
If you have been to seminars you have a couple tools to use in self defense, but in the grand scheme you know nothing of the actual things that make it work.

With general MA techniques you must use some strength and pain to control your opponent. The goal in Shidareyanagi Ryu is to control your opponent with no need to cause your opponent pain. If you maneuver your opponent into the correct position the tendons simply don't work and you are unable to move and you don't know why because you don't feel enough pain to figure out the source of your immobility. He may be holding your hand, but it is your legs that can't move so you fight against the hand that is holding you when the real escape is to sit on the floor to unchain the domino effect your skeleton is in.

Don did not believe in ki or chi to make the moves work, but only scientific mechanical positions that make it effective.

If he were here today he would laugh at this thread like reading a comic book. And if someone questioned the validity or genealogical background of the art, he would look at you with a sweet smile and say, "I'm French, why do you ask? Do i look like a Jamaican or somethin?"

BackFistMonkey
8/07/2017 9:44am,
I will verify that it is a very difficult art that involves much focus and structural manipulation. During the begining of my training my feet hurt and not my wrists. It took months to learn to stand correctly and hold my feet in contorted positions before learning wrist locks.
That statement is complete nonsense.


It is not for the faint of heart and it is not for those who are unwilling to suffer through the boring stuff and being fed the fun stuff little by little.
Again this is nonsense.


It is also not for you. No disrespect, but it is only taught by invitation after research into a prospective student's background, with the exception of seminars that contain basic fun looking maneuvers or police training of basic takedowns for law enforcement purposes.
Oh neato! You are claiming secret techniques and special knowledge. I haven't seen this line of BS in quite a long time. Usually that train of thought runs around in the magickal thinking crowds. Let's see how that pans out for you.


If you have been to seminars you have a couple tools to use in self defense, but in the grand scheme you know nothing of the actual things that make it work. Who are you talking to? This thread has been dead for half a decade.


With general MA techniques you must use some strength and pain to control your opponent.
Holy Christ you are ignorant. Truly ignorant to make a claim such as that. You are describing nothing remotely close to how alive martial arts work. It is almost like you have no clue what you are talking about.

The goal in Shidareyanagi Ryu is to control your opponent with no need to cause your opponent pain. If you maneuver your opponent into the correct position the tendons simply don't work and you are unable to move and you don't know why because you don't feel enough pain to figure out the source of your immobility. He may be holding your hand, but it is your legs that can't move so you fight against the hand that is holding you when the real escape is to sit on the floor to unchain the domino effect your skeleton is in.
Oh I see. You don't know what you are talking about.

Raycetpfl
8/07/2017 5:26pm,
I don't know why you are so offended by my information.
You cannot say that the first statement is nonsense because it is not just a statement but a recount of my experience. It is an art based out of Sword usage and it is very necessary when using a sword to have very good balance and it took me months to build balance and strength in my feet and legs and torso to be able to move in the ways necessary for proper technique. I ended up with calluses on my feet and very sore muscles.

Learning how to roll properly was also a difficult process it is not easy to shape your arms and back in a way that can cause you to roll well until you have built up the muscles and shape your arm positioning correctly. Until I learned how to roll well I had many bruises on my shoulders and would often have kinked neck and sore head from landing on the floor incorrectly.

Why do you think it is nonsense that learning and art is not for the faint of heart? The truth is that learning to stand correctly and do rolls correctly is not easy but takes a lot of time learning how to stand from sitting positions into fighting stances using the muscles of only one leg rather than both. Many times while doing the drills my muscles would burn and I would spend much time on the ground breathing heavy to regain the energy to continue the drills.

Why do you suggest that I am talking about secret techniques I never said that what I said was that it is taught by the soke by invitation, not because of secret techniques, but because there is no dire to invest time and training into someone who does not have good character and are willing to work hard. You might find teachers who will teach you who have spent time studying the art, but the main dojo is closed to people who don't have references of good character.

As far as signature techniques go, there is nothing magical about that. Many traditional arts such this we're taught only to family or members of the same clan. So the personality of an art has signature characteristics. There is nothing magical about that, it is just plain common sense.

If you think this thread was dead for over a decade then why are you responding?

Why do you think it is a crazy claim that a certain amount of strength and pain is needed to control an opponent. Most MA are for fighting and causing pain.

This martial art was developed specifically as a sword art and to be used by Samurai as a way of enforcing law within their shogun's area. The goal was not to get is silly quarrels but to train in weapon warfare. Most techniques are designed to quickly manipulate an opponent into a vulnerable position where they can easily be killed with a weapon/sword. Wasting time with pain causing techniques gives an opponent time to fight back. The goal is to trip/push/dodge/sway/redirect/whatever... to end in slicing the opponent's body.

However, samurai arts we're not limited to battle, but also law enforcement and containing prisoners. Though techniques have the potential to cause much pain the goal is to minimize a person's ability to fight back, and that is not accomplished by pain but by leaving a person off balance or in a position they don't know escape from. That is part of why this art is taught in seminars to police. You have undoubtedly seen how cops twist someone's arm behind their back to put on them handcuffs. It is because the arm cannot fight back from that position however it is not a painful position "Unless" you fight against the position, just like the majority of the positions in shidare yanagi ryu.

You're a dumbass.

cualltaigh
8/07/2017 6:06pm,
He may be holding your hand, but it is your legs that can't move so you fight against the hand that is holding you when the real escape is to sit on the floor to unchain the domino effect your skeleton is in.


Hahahahahahaha. yep, that's some top notch scientifically based mechanical martial arts right there!

The domino effect on your skeleton! *snicker*. Oh gawd you've chugged down that koolaid hard sanchez. Do you have to wear magic pants to make the domino effect work?

Do you have any video examples of this domino effect at work? Or even a diagram showing how holding my wrist can physiologically impact anything in my legs?

BackFistMonkey
8/07/2017 8:31pm,
I don't know why you are so offended by my information.
You cannot say that the first statement is nonsense because it is not just a statement but a recount of my experience. It is an art based out of Sword usage and it is very necessary when using a sword to have very good balance and it took me months to build balance and strength in my feet and legs and torso to be able to move in the ways necessary for proper technique. I ended up with calluses on my feet and very sore muscles.

The situations and specifics you are describing are nonsensical.


Learning how to roll properly was also a difficult process it is not easy to shape your arms and back in a way that can cause you to roll well until you have built up the muscles and shape your arm positioning correctly. Until I learned how to roll well I had many bruises on my shoulders and would often have kinked neck and sore head from landing on the floor incorrectly.

You are describing terrible training methods and bad ukime. I guess you don't realize it shouldn't take more than 2-4 hours of instruction to get the basic understanding of the tumbling aspects of ukime right? You will spend the rest of your life perfecting various rolls and breakfalls but to claim it takes months learn how to roll is literally retarded.



Why do you think it is nonsense that learning and art is not for the faint of heart?
Because you are describing bad training as if it is something good.

The truth is that learning to stand correctly and do rolls correctly is not easy but takes a lot of time learning how to stand from sitting positions into fighting stances using the muscles of only one leg rather than both. Many times while doing the drills my muscles would burn and I would spend much time on the ground breathing heavy to regain the energy to continue the drills.

You got conned.


Why do you suggest that I am talking about secret techniques I never said that what I said was that it is taught by the soke by invitation, not because of secret techniques, but because there is no dire to invest time and training into someone who does not have good character and are willing to work hard. You might find teachers who will teach you who have spent time studying the art, but the main dojo is closed to people who don't have references of good character.

... sure ...
You do realize that is an excuse used to weed out people who will not fall for the ancient samurai bit and to weed out the people who see the nonsense as nonsense.

As far as signature techniques go, there is nothing magical about that. Many traditional arts such this we're taught only to family or members of the same clan. So the personality of an art has signature characteristics. There is nothing magical about that, it is just plain common sense.
Most family styles are bullshit and most "traditional" MA have a huge amount of nonsense and fake history.

If you think this thread was dead for over a decade then why are you responding?
Because some particular individual posted on it and started talking nonsense.

Why do you think it is a crazy claim that a certain amount of strength and pain is needed to control an opponent. Most MA are for fighting and causing pain.
Your ignorance is showing. All martial arts are for fighting or it isn't a martial art and relying on pain compliance is a recipe for failure. The fact that you claim

With general MA techniques you must use some strength and pain to control your opponent.
and then changed your position to the quote above, while maintaining the position which is most ignorant and damning.


This martial art was developed specifically as a sword art and to be used by Samurai as a way of enforcing law within their shogun's area. The goal was not to get is silly quarrels but to train in weapon warfare. Most techniques are designed to quickly manipulate an opponent into a vulnerable position where they can easily be killed with a weapon/sword. Wasting time with pain causing techniques gives an opponent time to fight back. The goal is to trip/push/dodge/sway/redirect/whatever... to end in slicing the opponent's body.
Evidence please. Evidence for any of your claims. All of them are fantasy.


However, samurai arts we're not limited to battle, but also law enforcement and containing prisoners. Though techniques have the potential to cause much pain the goal is to minimize a person's ability to fight back, and that is not accomplished by pain but by leaving a person off balance or in a position they don't know escape from. That is part of why this art is taught in seminars to police.
Taught by who to which police and when? Again evidence please... any evidence for any of your claims.


You have undoubtedly seen how cops twist someone's arm behind their back to put on them handcuffs. It is because the arm cannot fight back from that position however it is not a painful position "Unless" you fight against the position, just like the majority of the positions in shidare yanagi ryu.
Evidence please. One video of these special shidare yanagi ryu techniques being used in a live environment. If the majority of the techniques or positions as you call them accomplish this it should be easy to do.

GrouchyOldMan
8/07/2017 8:31pm,
https://youtu.be/QvWiYcxTm2A

David Burns
8/07/2017 10:20pm,
You clearly have no true interest in martial arts and are only interested in saying negative things about people who do study them.

If you care about evidence blah - blah - blah, you are welcome to look at some of the seminars posted on you tube. I am sure you will find crap to say about those demonstrations too, but that can only be because you have never trained in those type of arts.

Aikido, aikijutsu, jiujitsu, BJJ, Krav Maga... They all use the same basic techniques and principles but simply in different environments. If you ask anyone who studies any of those arts they can affirm that the techniques are based on the principles of joint manipulation that involve skeletal structure throughout the body rather than just the one spot where a person is touching.

If you really want any kind of evidence of the scientific nature of those types of arts then research it for yourself. It is not hard to find. There is nothing hidden about it. You can go to dragon video library website for many of the aspects of Shidare Yanagi Ryu weapon trainings for more evidence there.

Best yet, take some classes from any good Aikijutsu instructor and feel for yourself how it feels to your skeleton. There is no better evidence than feeling it yourself.

Anyone who thinks they can master rolls and falls in just a few hours has probably only done a couple of easy somersaults. Rolls and falls have a wide range of use that takes strengthening of arm and back muscles, and muscles take time to grow.

When you see MA demonstrations where people are thrown through the air, you are not actually seeing someone throwing the other person, but you are seeing a person do a jump and roll that is designed to escape from the joint lock position. "Being thrown" is actually an acrobatic skill of rolling. Yes it takes much time.

Look up videos of ikajo, nikajo, sankajo. From them you should see plenty of examples of how twisting of the bones in the arms affects the ballence of the feet and spine.

David Burns
8/07/2017 11:17pm,
https://youtu.be/QvWiYcxTm2A

This is a typical demonstration that shows how it was applied in samurai style. And if you follow it to other videos you will find examples of how it is used in hand to hand usage without swords, but one of the best sets of examples are from one of the top students of shidare yanagi ryu who's name is James Williams who teaches Nami Ryu. He gives many slow motion examples and explanations of the skeletal domino effect. The techniques are the same he encorporated from Shidare Yanagi Ryu. ikajo, nikajo, sankajo and other kajos. They are very informative to watch.

BackFistMonkey
8/08/2017 12:17am,
This is a typical demonstration that shows how it was applied in samurai style. And if you follow it to other videos you will find examples of how it is used in hand to hand usage without swords, but one of the best sets of examples are from one of the top students of shidare yanagi ryu who's name is James Williams who teaches Nami Ryu. He gives many slow motion examples and explanations of the skeletal domino effect. The techniques are the same he encorporated from Shidare Yanagi Ryu. ikajo, nikajo, sankajo and other kajos. They are very informative to watch.

What is so informative about compliant demonstrations and people playing pretend while taking a dive?

cualltaigh
8/08/2017 12:27am,
You clearly have no true interest in martial arts and are only interested in saying negative things about people who do study them.

Quite the opposite. I (and many others here) have a very keen interest in the martial (note fighting) arts, rather than the historical recreation and performance arts that you are clinging your ego to.


If you care about evidence blah - blah - blah, you are welcome to look at some of the seminars posted on you tube. I am sure you will find crap to say about those demonstrations too, but that can only be because you have never trained in those type of arts.

No, I will find crap to say about them because I've trained in those types of arts.


Aikido, aikijutsu, jiujitsu, BJJ, Krav Maga... They all use the same basic techniques and principles but simply in different environments. If you ask anyone who studies any of those arts they can affirm that the techniques are based on the principles of joint manipulation that involve skeletal structure throughout the body rather than just the one spot where a person is touching.

I've trained BJJ, Jujitsu and Aikido (and Judo as a youngling). There is no "Domino Effect" that flows through the "skeletal structure".


If you really want any kind of evidence of the scientific nature of those types of arts then research it for yourself. It is not hard to find. There is nothing hidden about it. You can go to dragon video library website for many of the aspects of Shidare Yanagi Ryu weapon trainings for more evidence there.

I have and found none. I want to see what evidence you think exists that supports such a hypothesis - if any. You made the claim of scientific basis, you need to back it up with evidence.


Best yet, take some classes from any good Aikijutsu instructor and feel for yourself how it feels to your skeleton. There is no better evidence than feeling it yourself.

I have. Nothing has ever effected the "skeletal structure" in my legs by applying force to anywhere on my arms. Ever.


When you see MA demonstrations where people are thrown through the air, you are not actually seeing someone throwing the other person, but you are seeing a person do a jump and roll that is designed to escape from the joint lock position. "Being thrown" is actually an acrobatic skill of rolling. Yes it takes much time.

Yes it is a performance. An assumed reaction to a predetermined stimulus. Much more of a dance than anything martially effective.


Look up videos of ikajo, nikajo, sankajo. From them you should see plenty of examples of how twisting of the bones in the arms affects the ballence of the feet and spine.

Which ones show it the best? Give me your best shot at this.

DCS
8/08/2017 2:07am,
Aikido, aikijutsu, jiujitsu, BJJ, Krav Maga... They all use the same basic techniques and principles but simply in different environments. If you ask anyone who studies any of those arts they can affirm that the techniques are based on the principles of joint manipulation that involve skeletal structure throughout the body rather than just the one spot where a person is touching.

...

Look up videos of ikajo, nikajo, sankajo. From them you should see plenty of examples of how twisting of the bones in the arms affects the ballence of the feet and spine.

Generating kuzushi via commutative locking is no big deal nor rocket science,

David Burns
8/08/2017 6:38am,
Generating kuzushi via commutative locking is no big deal nor rocket science,

I never said it was rocket science, just that it is an actual thing that is actually real and is based on scientific principles and is one of the focuses of Aikijutsu arts.

David Burns
8/08/2017 7:43am,
Then sorry for suggesting you have no interest in MA. (Note "fighting" arts)
You have no interest in joint lock related arts. Perhaps you have experienced some of various aikijutsu arts, but clearly your interest is limited to fist-fighting and that sort of thing.
Your misunderstanding is the term "Martial Arts." Somehow you are limiting the term "martial" to fighting. The term "martial" refers to "war," not just "fighting." If you take away the sword from a samurai, then you can clearly have an advantage for someone who has trained as a boxer, who has trained to punch speedily, but give a sword to the boxer, then the advantage goes back to the samurai who has trained to draw his sword and swing it with accuracy more speedily. Limit the fight to a knife fight, and both artists will have major limitations, but the samurai will most likely win because of the knife training. Limit the fight to a gun and put them 20 feet apart from each other and who knows what the outcome will be. It will probably go to the person who knows how to turn off the safety button first.

My argument from the start has not been a contest of which arts are better than others, but simply that aikijutsu arts are real and they do work effectively for the purpose they were created. And that the "dance" that you see in a demonstration is not the way it looks like in a real situation, because in a real situation the uke would just go straight down with a broken elbow or dislodged shoulder or a smashed head against the concrete or a slit throat. So the choreographed dance with people flying through the air is designed to avoid injury.

If you want a good example then watch the video in the octagon where BJJ won against whatever style the "Rock" was using before his neck was broken and he died right there. I guarantee that was not choreographed.

If you took any training in Aikijuts arts and did not see any correlation to how the joints affect other joints, or how one of the most basic techniques ikajo holds the hand but causes your feet to lose balance... then you should go back and pay attention.

If you want to know which videos give the best demonstrations, then check out the slow motion videos of ikajo, and effective grasping, by James Williams. I think he does a good job of explaining some of that. If you pay attention to the feet of his ukes you will see how the feet come off balance and sometimes the heels lift off the ground standing only on the toes or balancing on just one foot.

Like DCS said, joint manipulation is not rocket science. So it should be easy to recognize.

David Burns
8/08/2017 7:53am,
What is so informative about compliant demonstrations and people playing pretend while taking a dive?

Watch the informative videos by James Williams Nami Ryu. They are informative because he shows things slow motion from different angles and points to specific joints and tendons to explain how they interact.

DCS
8/08/2017 8:01am,
Like DCS said, joint manipulation is not rocket science. So it should be easy to recognize.

It is also easy to overrate as a viable unbalancing method when it is practised under the uke-nage relationship in kata.

When used in an alive environment, the results are way less spectacular for the opponent is will try to regain his balance, escape or counter.

David Burns
8/08/2017 9:02am,
It is also easy to overrate as a viable unbalancing method when it is practised under the uke-nage relationship in kata.

When used in an alive environment, the results are way less spectacular for the opponent is will try to regain his balance, escape or counter.

I agree wholeheartedly! You would notice in my previous statements that the spectacular flying through the air is merely the art of rolling to avoid injury, and that in a real life situation it looks as un-spectacular as something falling straight down, cutting with a knife or hitting head against something, etc...

Obviously any smart attacker is going to attempt a counter or regaining balance, but that takes a second or two giving you time to do what needs to be done. The joint lock or imbalance is never the end result. As I said several times, it is with the intention of ending with the use of a weapon, usually a blade if possible. But a knee to the head while someone is bent over for a second, or pushing them off balance with head against a wall takes less than a second. It only takes me a second to pull my weapon from my pocket. And I, as well as many Aikijutsu artists have a concealed weapons permit.

I think I mentioned before that, MA is not just a "fighting" art but a "warlike" art that is designed to make use of weapons.