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sillitoechris
12/05/2002 1:16pm,
Does BJJ have a moral code of conduct along the lines of TKD and Karate?
I hear many BJJ people on this site (not all of them) talking bigheadedly of how they would love to jump up and down on the heads of strikers.
I just wondered if this was in the fashion that they teach such a destructive art and if their instructors put these attitudes into their heads. Call me stupid (Im sure someone will) but shouldnt the knowledge of martial arts subdue your urge to use them.
The old TKD tenants of courtesy, integrity and self control would seem to be ringing in my ears as I write this.

PeedeeShaolin
12/05/2002 1:46pm,
Let me explain. Im not going to call you a jerk or anything man because you didn't act like one. Your question comes down to values.

BJJ absolutely teaches values.

Before I start I'm going to tell everyone that there is no way that learning to fight, which is what martial arts were designed for, should make you somehow a better person or a saint. Soldiers learn to fight and it really doesn't do this for them. Soldiers are capable of murder.

Much of this stuff about values comes from the code of Bushido. Samurai followed this very strictly. They also believed in ritual suicide.

When you BOW to someone you are simply bending at your waist. There is no rspect there. Its a motion. Real respect comes from your actions towards a person. In human nature bowing is often considered an act of inferiority. This breeds a little bit of contempt. Thats just the way most people are.

I see no logical way to expect learning a art to curb a persons desire to use it. Thats the LAST thing I would expect. Thats just not realistic. It has never made sense.

I am a black belt in Karate so I ca say that I truly have never found the kind of teamwork, bond and REAL respect in any art that I've seen in the grappling art. People surrender to their classmates every day with a smile. They tap out telling them they were , without doubt,. superior in the match.

Theres no ego involved.

If you get beat down or knocked out on a Karate match, its VIOLENCE. Its HITTING and HARMING someone. This does not make friends. It does in one sense but the threat of harm and violence is always there. Its a much more competitive side of the arts.

If you think wrestling doesn't instill values why don't you ask Asia is he's ever had the kind of teamwork, commitment, drive, support, or friendship that he has on his wrestling team. It honestly builds more of those things than any art I've seen. I've been to alot of schools too man. I'm not just talking out my ass.

It also gives you REAL CONFIDENC when you actually take a FULLY RESISTING man down. There is no hold back. When you point spar in TKD you really have no idea who would win if you were throwing hands and all humans have some sort of ego. Its in our brain. When your honestly taken down and beaten time and time again, without question, you become TRULY humble in alot of respects. You develop REAL respect for your opponent and instructors. You dont need to bow to your BJJ instructor or wrestling coach. The respect is evident.

Also by performing in such a rigorous art you learn than your body needs to be conditioned. Grappling is one of the most demanding arts for your body. Black belts from almsot any art are sorely lacking in conditioning these days. It takes discipline to push yourself under these circumstances and it takes heart to keep rolling when your body is exhausted.

All the things I mentioned are very real values. They are values that are applicble in the the real world.

SLJ
12/05/2002 2:04pm,
I think everyone should try a grappling art, it's great fun, you make friends and add grappling skills to your abilitys.

Chris, please don't think we're all like "IGiveBJs"

"Blood sugar suckerfish is my dish.
How many pieces do you wish ?"

Boffo
12/05/2002 2:21pm,
The karate masters in Japan that built the JKA and stuff grew up on Judo and Kendo before they ever tossed a punch. These were the guys from the 1920s and 1930s, including Asai and Oyama. Survivors of that period talk about how their point sparring would turn into Judo matches because someone would get pissed and take the other person to the ground for a beat-down.

Yep, the old karate masters cross-trained. Go figure!

Vargas
12/05/2002 3:08pm,
In my experience, there is no special kind of respect or honor attached to any art or fighting style. I've seen pretty poor behavior from wrestlers, boxers, NHB fighters, Mijindo-Ryu Ju Jitsu, TKD, Shotokan karate, BJJ, the list goes on. The only difference that I've ever noticed is that styles that contain full-throttle sparring give participants a chance to work out some of those personal differences that always spring up. You may not have to respect your elders, but you definitely learn to respect your betters.

I Give BJJs
12/05/2002 5:17pm,
you mean I'm not liked around here?

shinbushi
12/05/2002 6:17pm,
In human nature bowing is often considered an act of inferiority.
Not human nature, Western Culture. In China and more so Japan is is the same thing as a handshake, but depending on relitive social rank it can denote position by the deepness of the bow.

To win an unarmed conflict don't stay unarmed

Berserk411
12/05/2002 6:17pm,
I feel like I respect the ppl I train BJJ with more then the ppl I used to train Karate with. When your rolling around sweating, bleeding and giving it your all with a group of ppl day in and day out respect for them just grows.

You have to trust the people you train with because unlike in Karate when a mistake means a black eye or a bloody lip, in BJJ a mistake means a broken arm or rib.

PeedeeShaolin
12/05/2002 6:36pm,
Exactly...Western culture. Why would we do something NOT in our own culture?

Do you speak in German if you drive a Volkswagon?

PeedeeShaolin
12/05/2002 6:39pm,
Yo Berserk, whats up? Whos been training down in Port Jeff? Any tough guys from the Gym? I havent seen Master Mansur in a while. I havent been able to grapple. i think I'm going to stop down on Friday and see whats up.

Greese
12/05/2002 7:03pm,
Respect is earned. Anyone who dosen't earn my respect will not get it.

Dochter
12/05/2002 11:02pm,
Exactly...Western culture. Why would we do something NOT in our own culture?


Well if you're training in a different culture's art, under their rules, wouldn't you adopt their considerations? At least while you're within the system? ... when in rome ...
As it is done in my ma school bowing is a show of mutual respect (between partners) and a show of respect to the instructor. This isn't about inferiority itís about showing your interest in learning from someone who presumably knows more about a topic than you do.
.

Dochter
12/05/2002 11:04pm,
Of course respect is earned, however, if you're going to be a courteous and ever have respect given to you, you have to operate under the assumption that someone does deserve it. Then if need be you can revoke that respect.

Otherwise you're kind of a prick.

Gezere
12/05/2002 11:17pm,
>Exactly...Western culture. Why would we do something NOT in our own culture?

PD is a valid point here. And one I like addressing. It is ok to know the cultural influences of the art you practice. If you are training IN country then you should adhere to the culture but if you are training in your own country you do not have to be as stengent. The big problem arises when pple (mainly Americans) add psuedo-culture into the mix. This is when you get Iaido pple saying BS like "A katana is not suppose to be put back unless it tastes blood!!" I have SEEN several clubs that dilberately cut themselves before sheathing. If they really knew the culture the would know a chiburi is preformed before returning the blade because it is not good to store a dirty place in the saya, it will rust quicker.

Truthfully NO moral code is needed for MA (most that are used now are hypocritical to the nature of the art) but I do believe in selecting pple to teach. The skill I will teach someone will give them means to cause great harm, I don't just want anyone haveing those skills.

Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invinsible Asia) Emporer of Baji!!! THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE AGAINST THE UNITED AUSSIE FRONT!!

Mr. Donkeypenis
12/05/2002 11:45pm,
My sentiments exactly, Asia

A.K.A MEAT

Dochter
12/06/2002 12:12am,
The bloodletting is obviously fairly stupid (reminds me of Dune though, always a good thing). However I think bowing is only a big deal if you make it one and start liking your instructor's shoes or some such b.s.

The choosing of whom to teach is probably a good idea and one my instructor has mentioned (though it borders on that whole "our methods are too powerful to demonstrate" argument). It is however likely less of an option depending on how commercial you go.