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BKR
2/15/2017 1:15pm,
This is a good point, and one that I usually argue in reverse, when people justify their hyper-accurate, not so common caliber choices in hunting rifles. Don't get me wrong, I don't care what anyone spends their money on, and if it makes them happy...go with it. But, to claim obvious superiority of some difficult to obtain, expensive caliber, in a hunting rifle always seemed a little silly to me.

It's all about wanting to be unique and special. Any reasonable modern (or not so modern cartridge) can be hyper-accurate in a well made rifle wielded by a skilled shooter.

I'm more interested in the experience of hunting, not the exact tool used to hunt. I'm trying to raise my boys the same way. My Dad was a bit of a "rifle" looney, and a lot of that rubbed off on me. He was interested in ringing out the last bit of accuracy from our hunting rifles. This was back in the 70s, 80s and into the mid-90s. He had plenty of gold stashed away (not the Hebrew type, though), so spent a lot of money on reloading, gunsmiths, etc. I can't complain, because he worked on my hunting rifles as well, LOL!

Anyway, it was good father-son bonding, and I learned a bit about hand-loading firearms in general.

Point being, it's all in good fun (spending lots of money on fancy firearms, and piddling endlessly in same). You just have to have some perspective and realize that that is all it is, a complex and fascinating (to some) hobby.

Now, I love fine firearms, either or both in terms of aesthetics and performance. The intersection of form and function is endlessly interesting (as in Judo, for example, LOL). Fine walnut and beautifully finished metal (my Dad has a few of those) in a rifle that will shoot well and comfortably is a sublime thing.

BKR
2/15/2017 1:22pm,
Oh ****! I forgot about the Jew gold!

Pshit has been taking up a small but significant portion of your bandwidth.

BKR
2/15/2017 1:39pm,
From everything I read, I knew his earliest endeavors involved the commercial 98 mauser actions (one of my all time favorites - I'm sort of a nutrider on the classic Mauser 98s). I would have expected that number to be lower than 70,000 psi. What is your reference for that (not arguing, just curious)?

I never paid that much attention to SAMI specs, and I am woefully deficient on my knowledge of actual ballistics data, because I'm not a handloader, and the raw data and all those numbers just seemed so dry and boring to me. I'm surprised those numbers fall as close together as they do.

The overall impression I always had was that the rifles Weatherby was using just weren't suitable to hold up to his wildcatting various cartridges. And, in line with my previous comments about hand loading, always thought the guy was a little nuts. I still think that, because even the thought of brass failure makes me shudder quite a bit.

Regardless...yes, obviously his salesmanship and marketing skills are top notch. All that aside, I still think the Weatherby Mark V to be a damn fine rifle, independent of the hype.

Correct on the Mauser 98 actions.

I looked up the various Weatherby cartridges. 65,000 PSI was the upper limit. The way pressures work, the maximum average is what is used for pressure limits, so I doubt many commercial loads would average 65K. You have to have some margin for error, and small increases in pressure do not result in large increases in velocity. And as a practical matter, even an average 100 FPS velocity increase isn't particularly significant in a hunting round, especially at the ranges normal big-game hunting takes place.

I've read numerous articles over the years about pressure. One author in particular is John Barsness, who used to be an editor/writer for Handloader/Succesful Hunter/and Rifle (magazines, Wolf Publishing). He really cleared up a lot of misconceptions about pressure measurements and limits for me (and lot of other folks as well).

A bit of trivia: If I recall correctly, P.O. Ackley did testing of various bolt action actions to see which one was "strongest". Yeah, here is some of his original writings on the topic.
http://dutchman.rebooty.com/temp/Ackley.pdf

The brass is the limiting factor to large degree.

I speculate that if a case-less cartridge could be successfully developed, we might see higher pressure ammo used in actions specially designed for them.

Marketing on Weatherby's part, I think, regarding the strength of the actions available to him at the time. No doubt the Weatherby actions are solid design. I found a reference to the biography of Roy that claims there is significant test data of a Mark V. I also found this, I'm guessing an excerpt from that book.
http://www.weatherby.dk/showthread.php?201-Test-of-the-MARK-V-action

Roy was crazy like a fox, LOL, and the Mark V is a damned mine rifle, without a doubt.

BKR
2/15/2017 1:50pm,
**wonders to self - "Is this an insult, or personal challenge?" It made me laugh, either way.

Get over yourself, it wasn't directed at you !

Cassius
2/15/2017 3:06pm,
Why I don't want to commit to 6.5 creedmoor and think .308 is a better "learner" round for my purposes:

1.) I already have an awesome savage .308 build. Just lacking the suppressor that belongs on the end of the 18" barrel. Probably a SIG SRD762TI. That barrel is going to last forever.

2.) .308 vs 6.5 recoil is not a concern for me. I shoot far more powerful stuff on a regular basis. Either is comfortable for me to shoot.

3.) 6.5 is a known "wind cheater." I'm comfortable shooting out to 500 yards with .223 and .308 with "minute of man" accuracy, but I am specifically interested in learning how to deal with what happens past that. Since I wanted to eventually suppress a .308 rifle anyway, I bought one with an 18" barrel long before I planned on buying the suppressor. Yes I know I am handicapping myself. It was intentional. Keep in mind my goal is to become a much better shooter who can shoot out to 1000 yards as a matter of course, not to learn just enough to ring a steel gong occasionally.

4.) While match 6.5 creedmoor can be had for significantly cheaper than people tend to think, even the 175gr FGGM pills that my rifle likes are still cheaper. My rifle shoots most good 155+ grain ammo fairly well (not surprising with a short 1:10 twist barrel) well, but it is worth mentioning that it does not shoot cheap surplus ammo well, about 4 MOA.

5.) I'm not totally sure 6.5 creedmoor will stick around forever and I don't reload currently. Still though, it is an awesome round.

I'm sure I have some other reasons I'm forgetting.

GrouchyOldMan
2/15/2017 3:12pm,
Why I don't want to commit to 6.5 creedmoor and think .308 is a better "learner" round for my purposes:

1.) I already have an awesome savage .308 build. Just lacking the suppressor that belongs on the end of the 18" barrel. Probably a SIG SRD762TI. That barrel is going to last forever.

2.) .308 vs 6.5 recoil is not a concern for me. I shoot far more powerful stuff on a regular basis. Either is comfortable for me to shoot.

3.) 6.5 is a known "wind cheater." I'm comfortable shooting out to 500 yards with .223 and .308 with "minute of man" accuracy, but I am specifically interested in learning how to deal with what happens past that. Since I wanted to eventually suppress a .308 rifle anyway, I bought one with an 18" barrel long before I planned on buying the suppressor. Yes I know I am handicapping myself. It was intentional. Keep in mind my goal is to become a much better shooter who can shoot out to 1000 yards as a matter of course, not to learn just enough to ring a steel gong occasionally.

4.) While match 6.5 creedmoor can be had for significantly cheaper than people tend to think, even the 175gr FGGM pills that my rifle likes are still cheaper. My rifle shoots most good 155+ grain ammo fairly well (not surprising with a short 1:10 twist barrel) well, but it is worth mentioning that it does not shoot cheap surplus ammo well, about 4 MOA.

5.) I'm not totally sure 6.5 creedmoor will stick around forever and I don't reload currently. Still though, it is an awesome round.

I'm sure I have some other reasons I'm forgetting.

You appear to be using dangerous levels of common sense.

GrouchyOldMan
2/15/2017 3:13pm,
Get over yourself, it wasn't directed at you !

I'm sure that the preacher in church isn't directing his sermons at me either. That doesn't keep me from feeling like crawling under the pew when he is preaching.

Cassius
2/15/2017 4:30pm,
You appear to be using dangerous levels of common sense.I wouldn't go that far. I do have a membership at Peacemaker National Training Center, though. They have a 1000 yard range that is only open to members who show they are capable of long range accuracy and can pass a basic qual, verbal test, and written test. Not the most laid back of places to shoot, but they run a tight ship. Unfortunately they don't let you play around with trying to see how far you can shoot a particular firearm--say a henry 45-70 case hardened edition--just for shits and giggles, but the trade-off is that it's a good environment to focus and learn. Trying to make the most of it.

GrouchyOldMan
2/15/2017 4:56pm,
I wouldn't go that far. I do have a membership at Peacemaker National Training Center, though. They have a 1000 yard range that is only open to members who show they are capable of long range accuracy and can pass a basic qual, verbal test, and written test. Not the most laid back of places to shoot, but they run a tight ship. Unfortunately they don't let you play around with trying to see how far you can shoot a particular firearm--say a henry 45-70 case hardened edition--just for shits and giggles, but the trade-off is that it's a good environment to focus and learn. Trying to make the most of it.

My (EXTREMELY) limited exposure to long range shooting clubs leads me to believe that the SOP and atmosphere as you describe it is pretty consistent throughout.

There is one long range club I know of within a reasonable distance of me, and I have been there twice as a guest. I don't take myself, or my shooting, quite so seriously. For my entire adult life, I have wanted to try out the 1000 yard adjustment on the open sights of my old Spanish Mauser, and I was told on both occasions, by both individuals who had invited me, basically "no way in hell".

Cassius
2/15/2017 5:49pm,
My (EXTREMELY) limited exposure to long range shooting clubs leads me to believe that the SOP and atmosphere as you describe it is pretty consistent throughout.

There is one long range club I know of within a reasonable distance of me, and I have been there twice as a guest. I don't take myself, or my shooting, quite so seriously. For my entire adult life, I have wanted to try out the 1000 yard adjustment on the open sights of my old Spanish Mauser, and I was told on both occasions, by both individuals who had invited me, basically "no way in hell".I get it, but that's a shame. Shooting is fun, even when the military makes it annoying. PNTC has normal public ranges as well as kick-ass "tactical" bays for 3gun and CQB style matches and shooting. Also shotgun sports like trap and skeet. Overall I think I got a good deal for my $150.

Ming Loyalist
2/15/2017 6:05pm,
Hard to beat either of those for off the shelf accuracy!

Given that your looking at shooting distances of 1200 yards, wouldn't the 6.5 be a more obviously suitable choice?

yeah, but i think i may choose .308 for pretty much all the reasons cassius said.


You didn't ask, but I'd get a Savage. I'd guess there are a lot more options out there on the market to customize than for a Tikka. Plus, you can pretty easily convert the Savage to other calibers of interest.

In any case, with your stash of Jew gold, the sky is the limit, right?

yeah, i'm leaning towards getting an FCP McMillan (left handed so it would have to go through the custom shop, good thing i have all the jew gold, right?) but tikka is owned by beretta and is available in NYC at the beretta store, unlike savage, so i want to take a close look at them as an option.

BKR
2/15/2017 6:47pm,
I left out wind drift...the Creedmore has a definite advantage due to somewhat higher BC bullets. Which is what 6.5 mm is known for, high BC. Which could result in less wind drift at 1,000 yards for the 6.5 Creedmore.

According to this guy, the 6.5 is the way to go for precision shooting at long range, and I am wrong on all counts, LOL!
http://www.accuracy-tech.com/6-5-creedmoor-vs-308-winchester/

Cassius
2/25/2017 8:19am,
Well I found a Springfield Armory Range Officer on sale for $660+free shipping. With the SA incentive program that is running right now, that is a pretty unbeatable deal, even if I end up having to pay $60 to get the firearm transferred.

So I guess that answers the question of which .45acp 1911 I'm going to eventually cave on.

Cassius
2/25/2017 8:31am,
I left out wind drift...the Creedmore has a definite advantage due to somewhat higher BC bullets. Which is what 6.5 mm is known for, high BC. Which could result in less wind drift at 1,000 yards for the 6.5 Creedmore.

According to this guy, the 6.5 is the way to go for precision shooting at long range, and I am wrong on all counts, LOL!
http://www.accuracy-tech.com/6-5-creedmoor-vs-308-winchester/I finally read that article and the earlier one that it linked to on the same blog.

I get what the guy is saying, and it makes sense for new shooters who want to get into PRS. My rebuttal to that comes in two points:

1.) There is often a separate .308 division in PRS for shooters without the resources or desire to go with better calibers.

2.) Getting into a sport and being competitive from the start is not the same thing as wanting to become a better shooter. I think long term a new shooter is better served learning on calibers that don't cheat the wind. If not a .308, at least start practicing with a .22lr "precision" rig. Anyone can afford that, and you can really gain a lot of good applicable knowledge at 200 yard and shorter ranges.

Cassius
2/26/2017 9:44pm,
Whoops I just bought a Finnish M39. This has been an expensive weekend.

BackFistMonkey
2/26/2017 10:14pm,
Whoops I just bought a Finnish M39. This has been an expensive weekend.
Well, I am looking around at the prices and 500 ish A.D. (American Dollars) for a nice rifle doesn't seem too terrible, that's a nice rifle
...from my limited hands on exposure anyway.
...
Oh yeah ... I just now see you spent another 740ish C.P. (Canadian Pesos) and a possible 1911.
That is an expensive weekend, my buy Monkey a Mossburg fund has like $6.89 in it.