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GrouchyOldMan
2/15/2017 9:30am,
Back to the whole caliber wars thing, am I crazy for thinking 6.5 creedmoor might actually be here to stay as a general purpose cartridge? I know a lot of long range folk are moving back toward .243 caliber bullets, and that there are technically more efficient cartridges designed around .260 caliber bullets available, but thanks to fantastic ammo manufacturer support 6.5 creed still seems to be growing more and more prevalent in PRS and long range hunting circles.

To me, trying to predict what will stick around, or make a breakout to prevalence and become commonplace, is almost like gazing into a crystal ball. If I remember correctly, the .40 and 10 mm pistol rounds were making their way to the consumer stage at just about the same time, and there was a lot of buzz surrounding both of them. And, of course, some conversations were had here and there about the 9mm being made obsolete because of these latest and greatest new calibers being so much better. Well...the 9mm has definitely not gone anywhere, the 10mm never did quite gain the prominence that ll of the early hype suggested, and the .40 seemed to solidly cement its place in the shooting world. I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with the 10mm. The whole point is that the shooting community seems to be a fickle and unpredictable bunch, and you just never can tell what is going to really take hold and what isn't.

The 6.5 creedmoor is a nice round, and offers some markedly impressive performance over other traditional cartridges for long distance shooters past the 700 yard line, but anything inside of that seems largely a "Ford vs Chevy" debate between it and something like the .308. The overwhelming majority of gun owners and casual shooters can't shoot at that distance anyway. Hell, I live in the midwest, and here in my part of the country, I can't think of anywhere that I can go within a reasonable traveling distance, that I would even have 700+ yards of open terrain to even allow me the opportunity to try to take shots at that distance. Yes, there is a long range shooting club not too far from me, that I believe has a 1000 yard range, but again, that is a private club with die hard enthusiasts, and not indicative of the "average" shooter or gun owner, and not indicative of the geography and landscape here in my state.

If it really takes hold with the distance shooters, or long range hunters out west, where its application would have the opportunity to truly shine...maybe.

As far as being a better learner platform than the .308, I'm curious why you say that. The 6.5 creedmoor should be gentler in the recoil department, and has a clear advantage in the truly "reach out and touch something" department, so why do you consider the .308 a better learner platform?

Ming Loyalist
2/15/2017 11:11am,
Back to the whole caliber wars thing, am I crazy for thinking 6.5 creedmoor might actually be here to stay as a general purpose cartridge? I know a lot of long range folk are moving back toward .243 caliber bullets, and that there are technically more efficient cartridges designed around .260 caliber bullets available, but thanks to fantastic ammo manufacturer support 6.5 creed still seems to be growing more and more prevalent in PRS and long range hunting circles. I have long term designs on having a Remington 700 action rebarreled to that from .243, or maybe even doing a full lefty build with a new action. Right now I'm happy to stick with my savage .308 build, as it seems like a better learner platform for long range shooting.

i'm planning to get a long range rifle at some point in the next year (i have access to a 1200 yard range sometimes) and have been considering the merits of .308 vs 6.5 creedmoor.

on one hand, 6.5 is the new hotness, is more stable over long distances, and seems to be sticking around.

on the other hand, the ammo is expensive (match grade .308 is no bargain either though) and many people consider it better to learn on .308 to have more experience with tougher wind/altitude/atmospheric calculations.

as to the gun? followers of my training blog will assume that i'll be shelling out for an accuracy international, but i assure you it will most likely be a savage or tika.

BKR
2/15/2017 12:12pm,
But for the record, my rolling block issue wasn't an ammo problem. That was a problem with lead in the chamber that kept the round from entering fully into the chamber.

Yeah, that wax lube and lead shavings can get pretty nasty in the chamber/leade. Especially if it's a tight or match-grade chamber. I have a 10-22 with a match chamber and it gets clogged up. I keep a special bent chamber brush to clean it out when doing high-volume shooting. Like ground squirrels...but not until Mid-April. Dammit...

Devil
2/15/2017 12:32pm,
Yeah, that wax lube and lead shavings can get pretty nasty in the chamber/leade. Especially if it's a tight or match-grade chamber. I have a 10-22 with a match chamber and it gets clogged up. I keep a special bent chamber brush to clean it out when doing high-volume shooting. Like ground squirrels...but not until Mid-April. Dammit...

There was a burr of lead in the chamber that just was not coming out with normal cleaning methods. I ended up sticking a .22 reamer in there and turning it ever so slightly by hand to clean up the chamber. Worked fine after that.

BKR
2/15/2017 12:34pm,
I didn't think it would have been an ammo problem, given the way you recalled the situation, it just brought to mind the kind of **** I have always been terrified may happen by screwing up a reload.

I really do wonder sometimes how Roy Weatherby could do what he did. One action failure, and I would have been done forever, and that guy designed his own bolt action just so he could continue to crank his crazy up to 11!

Weatherby did not initially use his own actions, BTW. The standard actions of the day (and today) could handle up to 70,000+ psi (not that they used PSI back then, but CUP (copper units of pressure) without much in the way of "pressure signs". In fact, it's the brass that can't handle the pressure, not the modern actions he was using in his initial development.

I looked up the SAAMI pressure specs for the 30-06: 60,000 PSI
The various Weatherby magnums are all at 65,000 PSI.

Modern actions can handle either one with no problem.

Weatherby was a brilliant and successful salesman and marketer, for sure...

GrouchyOldMan
2/15/2017 12:35pm,
as to the gun? followers of my training blog will assume that i'll be shelling out for an accuracy international, but i assure you it will most likely be a savage or tika.
Hard to beat either of those for off the shelf accuracy!

Given that your looking at shooting distances of 1200 yards, wouldn't the 6.5 be a more obviously suitable choice?

BKR
2/15/2017 12:39pm,
There was a burr of lead in the chamber that just was not coming out with normal cleaning methods. I ended up sticking a .22 reamer in there and turning it ever so slightly by hand to clean up the chamber. Worked fine after that.

That's interesting. One of my former shooting buddies was an early entry to the accur-izing of 10/22s. He also was doing trigger jobs on them the old fashioned way long before all the aftermarket stuff came out. He told me that to clean out the chamber of wax etc. was to use a reamer instead of a brush, by hand.

I've never had to go quite that far, though.

The main issue with 10/22s anyway was the way the barrel attaches to the receiver and the bedding or lack thereof...

Devil
2/15/2017 12:44pm,
Yep, the reamer works fine that way. You just have to be careful.

BKR
2/15/2017 12:45pm,
To me, trying to predict what will stick around, or make a breakout to prevalence and become commonplace, is almost like gazing into a crystal ball. If I remember correctly, the .40 and 10 mm pistol rounds were making their way to the consumer stage at just about the same time, and there was a lot of buzz surrounding both of them. And, of course, some conversations were had here and there about the 9mm being made obsolete because of these latest and greatest new calibers being so much better. Well...the 9mm has definitely not gone anywhere, the 10mm never did quite gain the prominence that ll of the early hype suggested, and the .40 seemed to solidly cement its place in the shooting world. I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with the 10mm. The whole point is that the shooting community seems to be a fickle and unpredictable bunch, and you just never can tell what is going to really take hold and what isn't.

The 6.5 creedmoor is a nice round, and offers some markedly impressive performance over other traditional cartridges for long distance shooters past the 700 yard line, but anything inside of that seems largely a "Ford vs Chevy" debate between it and something like the .308. The overwhelming majority of gun owners and casual shooters can't shoot at that distance anyway. Hell, I live in the midwest, and here in my part of the country, I can't think of anywhere that I can go within a reasonable traveling distance, that I would even have 700+ yards of open terrain to even allow me the opportunity to try to take shots at that distance. Yes, there is a long range shooting club not too far from me, that I believe has a 1000 yard range, but again, that is a private club with die hard enthusiasts, and not indicative of the "average" shooter or gun owner, and not indicative of the geography and landscape here in my state.

If it really takes hold with the distance shooters, or long range hunters out west, where its application would have the opportunity to truly shine...maybe.

As far as being a better learner platform than the .308, I'm curious why you say that. The 6.5 creedmoor should be gentler in the recoil department, and has a clear advantage in the truly "reach out and touch something" department, so why do you consider the .308 a better learner platform?

I'd say because ammo is a lot cheaper and readily available. The key to getting better at shooting is to shoot more, once the equipment is in decent working order.

If you are shooting at a known range, like, at a shooting range to train/practice, the relatively small differences between the 6.5 Creedmore and the 7.62x51 don't make a significant difference. You don't have to shoot max loads in either in those circumstances. In a "long range" rifle, which will probably be fairly heavy anyway, with a properly designed and set up stock, the 7.62 isn't going to beat you up much anyway.

It's mostly marketing...go figure.

BKR
2/15/2017 12:46pm,
Yep, the reamer works fine that way. You just have to be careful.

LOL, yeah, so I never got one. I just use my custom made bent-brush tool with some solvent. Problem solved...

BKR
2/15/2017 12:49pm,
i'm planning to get a long range rifle at some point in the next year (i have access to a 1200 yard range sometimes) and have been considering the merits of .308 vs 6.5 creedmoor.

on one hand, 6.5 is the new hotness, is more stable over long distances, and seems to be sticking around.

on the other hand, the ammo is expensive (match grade .308 is no bargain either though) and many people consider it better to learn on .308 to have more experience with tougher wind/altitude/atmospheric calculations.

as to the gun? followers of my training blog will assume that i'll be shelling out for an accuracy international, but i assure you it will most likely be a savage or tika.

You didn't ask, but I'd get a Savage. I'd guess there are a lot more options out there on the market to customize than for a Tikka. Plus, you can pretty easily convert the Savage to other calibers of interest.

In any case, with your stash of Jew gold, the sky is the limit, right?

Devil
2/15/2017 12:53pm,
You didn't ask, but I'd get a Savage. I'd guess there are a lot more options out there on the market to customize than for a Tikka. Plus, you can pretty easily convert the Savage to other calibers of interest.

In any case, with your stash of Jew gold, the sky is the limit, right?

Oh ****! I forgot about the Jew gold!

GrouchyOldMan
2/15/2017 12:54pm,
Weatherby did not initially use his own actions, BTW. The standard actions of the day (and today) could handle up to 70,000+ psi (not that they used PSI back then, but CUP (copper units of pressure) without much in the way of "pressure signs". In fact, it's the brass that can't handle the pressure, not the modern actions he was using in his initial development.

I looked up the SAAMI pressure specs for the 30-06: 60,000 PSI
The various Weatherby magnums are all at 65,000 PSI.

Modern actions can handle either one with no problem.

Weatherby was a brilliant and successful salesman and marketer, for sure...

From everything I read, I knew his earliest endeavors involved the commercial 98 mauser actions (one of my all time favorites - I'm sort of a nutrider on the classic Mauser 98s). I would have expected that number to be lower than 70,000 psi. What is your reference for that (not arguing, just curious)?

I never paid that much attention to SAMI specs, and I am woefully deficient on my knowledge of actual ballistics data, because I'm not a handloader, and the raw data and all those numbers just seemed so dry and boring to me. I'm surprised those numbers fall as close together as they do.

The overall impression I always had was that the rifles Weatherby was using just weren't suitable to hold up to his wildcatting various cartridges. And, in line with my previous comments about hand loading, always thought the guy was a little nuts. I still think that, because even the thought of brass failure makes me shudder quite a bit.

Regardless...yes, obviously his salesmanship and marketing skills are top notch. All that aside, I still think the Weatherby Mark V to be a damn fine rifle, independent of the hype.

GrouchyOldMan
2/15/2017 1:02pm,
In a "long range" rifle, which will probably be fairly heavy anyway, with a properly designed and set up stock, the 7.62 isn't going to beat you up much anyway.

It's mostly marketing...go figure.
This is a good point, and one that I usually argue in reverse, when people justify their hyper-accurate, not so common caliber choices in hunting rifles. Don't get me wrong, I don't care what anyone spends their money on, and if it makes them happy...go with it. But, to claim obvious superiority of some difficult to obtain, expensive caliber, in a hunting rifle always seemed a little silly to me.

BKR
2/15/2017 1:03pm,
Best all-round centerfire rifle cartridge: 7.62x51 NATO. Lots of relatively inexpensive, readily available ammo everywhere, plenty of "power" for hunting anything in NA (and most of the world, for that matter), chambered in a huge variety of firearms, huge amounts of reloading components (if you are man enough to hand-load). If your balls have dropped, you can hand-load everything from cheap "plinker" loads (using MILSURP brass) to match-grade target ammo to high-performance hunting loads tailored to your rifle. Of course, modern commercial ammo is of such high quality now that hand-loading is hardly a necessity.

Handgun cartridge: This one is tougher. Using similar reasoning to my choice of the 7.62x51, the choice would be 9x19 PB or .45 ACP in a semi-auto, and .357 Magnum in a revolver (or Coonan if you want a semi-auto and have plenty of gold stashed away). I'm really ignoring the whole handgun hunting genre, obviously. If you want to (legally and ethically) hunt big game with a handgun, you will need to have two handguns. I'd put in a vote for .44 Magnum, as it's readily and widely available, in everything from full house Buffalo bore loads down to .44 Special (similar to the .357 Magnum/.38 Special situation). You could have your cake and eat it too relative to self defense and hunting, albeit in a somewhat larger package than the .357 Mag.

Shotgun: This is easy: 12 Gauge.

I won't leave out the .22 rimfire (long rifle), either, obviously, in a rifle of some sort.

GrouchyOldMan
2/15/2017 1:08pm,
Best all-round centerfire rifle cartridge: 7.62x51 NATO. Lots of relatively inexpensive, readily available ammo everywhere, plenty of "power" for hunting anything in NA (and most of the world, for that matter), chambered in a huge variety of firearms, huge amounts of reloading components (if you are man enough to hand-load). If your balls have dropped, you can hand-load everything from cheap "plinker" loads (using MILSURP brass) to match-grade target ammo to high-performance hunting loads tailored to your rifle. Of course, modern commercial ammo is of such high quality now that hand-loading is hardly a necessity.

**wonders to self - "Is this an insult, or personal challenge?" It made me laugh, either way.