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View Full Version : Okay, opinion thread, why do I have a problem with this and what is your opinion



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MisterMR
11/30/2016 12:10pm,
Perhaps a nitpick but, I think that in the basic forward roll the one who falls should stay on the ground, as the purpose of the breakfall is to diminish damage in the fall, not to stand up and fight in standup again.
Additionally, I think it's almost impossible to stand up in that way in a realistic situation of judo or ju-jitsu throw. Actually in my opinion the only reason for standing up on forward rolls is lazyness/speeding up the rolls if there are many students in the room.

DCS
11/30/2016 12:21pm,
i still dont like catching the ground with the back of my hand when i do forward rolls.I use the front so i can aim my head where i want,. Important if the roll has hight or momentum.

Sometimes I make noobs grab a swiss ball or similar, tell them to visualize they're carrying a toddler, and then make them roll.

submessenger
11/30/2016 12:23pm,
I don't like the idea of using your palm in the forward roll, a-la gregaquaman's video, above. I'm a back-of-the-hander. I suppose, like anything, it's an acquired skill, but it just seems like an easy way to sprain your wrist, to me.

NeilG
11/30/2016 12:31pm,
I always use the palm, but I am not putting any weight on it. If you have the palm down and you do put weight on it accidentally, you are in a better position to avoid injury than putting weight on the back of the hand.

submessenger
11/30/2016 12:37pm,
I always use the palm, but I am not putting any weight on it. If you have the palm down and you do put weight on it accidentally, you are in a better position to avoid injury than putting weight on the back of the hand.

I suppose it's just one of those judo/bjj dichotomies. I wouldn't intentionally put weight on the back of my hand, for sure, but the direction of travel and gravity, etc, just make me think that palm down is inherently dangerous. If it works for you, more power to ya.

(edit) I really like 1point2's o soto gari suggestion for newbs. It's an easy technique to do poorly, but even poorly performed, I think it's effective - especially for SD.

DCS
11/30/2016 12:57pm,
This is how i teach rolls:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wV49Q9mpUI

But breakfalls are a different thing.

DCS
11/30/2016 12:59pm,
(edit) I really like 1point2's o soto gari suggestion for newbs. It's an easy technique to do poorly, but even poorly performed, I think it's effective - especially for hurting training partners.
Fixed.

BKR
11/30/2016 1:02pm,
Perhaps a nitpick but, I think that in the basic forward roll the one who falls should stay on the ground, as the purpose of the breakfall is to diminish damage in the fall, not to stand up and fight in standup again.
Additionally, I think it's almost impossible to stand up in that way in a realistic situation of judo or ju-jitsu throw. Actually in my opinion the only reason for standing up on forward rolls is lazyness/speeding up the rolls if there are many students in the room.

Zempo kaiten ukemi waza (in judo at least) can be done either way, stay flat, which is practice for flat falls (as in being thrown down), as well as standing up, useful for certain sutemi waza (Tomoe Nage, for example), and, for falling outside the dojo in general (for example, down stairs, or off of a horse, motorbike, bicycle, out of back of pickup truck, etc).

So, they can be done both ways, with different purposes in mind.

Tatami are relatively forgiving versus a hard surface, so it's important to have very good form when doing ukemi waza in the dojo, just in case you need to use it outside the dojo.

Ukemi waza have saved my ass more than once, both in the dojo an outside the dojo.

BKR
11/30/2016 1:04pm,
Sometimes I make noobs grab a swiss ball or similar, tell them to visualize they're carrying a toddler, and then make them roll.

yeah, swiss or yoga balls (large ones) are good for helping people feel/develop the body shape to do zempo kaiten correctly, for sure.

BKR
11/30/2016 1:06pm,
This is how i teach rolls:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wV49Q9mpUI

But breakfalls are a different thing.

Part in middle is what I call a front shoulder roll, it's a ne waza movement, like a back shoulder roll. I don't use that for teaching zempo kaiten.

Ukemi semantics, really, but I do get where you are coming from.

BKR
11/30/2016 1:09pm,
I don't like the idea of using your palm in the forward roll, a-la gregaquaman's video, above. I'm a back-of-the-hander. I suppose, like anything, it's an acquired skill, but it just seems like an easy way to sprain your wrist, to me.

Using the palm forward is a good way to get your wrist broken if thrown forward with a lot of force, if that is what you mean. Back of hand is same thing.

You want to roll like a wheel or ball, pinky of lead hand touches first (if it touches at all), along outside of your arm, across your back diagonally. Smallest surface area on ground as possible.

Plus a lot of other details.

BKR
11/30/2016 1:10pm,
I always use the palm, but I am not putting any weight on it. If you have the palm down and you do put weight on it accidentally, you are in a better position to avoid injury than putting weight on the back of the hand.

Neither one is optimal, palm or back of hand. Outside edge of hand is best.

BKR
11/30/2016 1:12pm,
I suppose it's just one of those judo/bjj dichotomies. I wouldn't intentionally put weight on the back of my hand, for sure, but the direction of travel and gravity, etc, just make me think that palm down is inherently dangerous. If it works for you, more power to ya.

(edit) I really like 1point2's o soto gari suggestion for newbs. It's an easy technique to do poorly, but even poorly performed, I think it's effective - especially for SD.

Neither one is optimal, seriously.

Osoto Gari is a great throw, SD or otherwise, but teaching noobs to stand on one leg and control themselves and uke is kinda silly, really. Way too many things can go wrong.

NeilG
11/30/2016 1:40pm,
Neither one is optimal, palm or back of hand. Outside edge of hand is best.Actually thinking about it, that's about the way it happens. I think of it as palm down but it's really more palm facing the mat at an angle.

BKR
11/30/2016 2:01pm,
Actually thinking about it, that's about the way it happens. I think of it as palm down but it's really more palm facing the mat at an angle.

Good, I was about to lose faith in you...

For a RH zempo kaiten (lead with right side of body, palms of both hands would be facing to right, opposite for left side fall.

Not forward at all.

NeilG
11/30/2016 2:18pm,
Good, I was about to lose faith in you...

For a RH zempo kaiten (lead with right side of body, palms of both hands would be facing to right, opposite for left side fall.

Not forward at all.Of course, the fingertips are pointing away from the direction of the fall. The leading arm is just part of the arc of the body as it rolls, no support there.