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View Full Version : Something I wonder about with the whole dim mak/pressure points stuff



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kimjonghng
9/01/2016 2:21pm,
If its bullshit and doesnt work, why do traditional styles have them in their curriculum. Take for instance I was looking at Lilly Lau's Eagle Claw videos on youtube and one of the applications was described as poking an accupoint below the eye as an actual attack. I know theres religious things like the whole prana system some believed in but its unlikely these attacks were used on resisting opponents to any effect, makes me wonder how any of these older styles didnt weed out superficial stuff, especially any that claim to have been used in wars.

Is it like a religious/spiritual thng?

BackFistMonkey
9/01/2016 2:25pm,
Religion is fantasy. Magic is fantasy.
Fantasy is fiction. It comes from our imaginations not the shared reality.

sooo... short answer is:
Why does anyone believe anything without evidence or solid logical progressions?


They choose to actively promote bullshit for what ever reason they have.

submessenger
9/01/2016 2:30pm,
If its bullshit and doesnt work, why do traditional styles have them in their curriculum. Take for instance I was looking at Lilly Lau's Eagle Claw videos on youtube and one of the applications was described as poking an accupoint below the eye as an actual attack. I know theres religious things like the whole prana system some believed in but its unlikely these attacks were used on resisting opponents to any effect, makes me wonder how any of these older styles didnt weed out superficial stuff, especially any that claim to have been used in wars.

Is it like a religious/spiritual thng?

I think it's more like a marketing thing. They can't possibly have "the realz" if they aren't teaching at least the same crap as the competition.

goodlun
9/01/2016 2:41pm,
Well for one its not bullshit *GASP* or well it is but its bullshit like most dead martial arts are bullshit.
There are such things as pressure points. They typically hurt a bit more than other points when you put serious pressure on them.
So if you just stand there and let me poke at them you will feel them. Since you can feel them your going to be like holy **** this **** is real.
If you don't train with aliveness you can make believe that you will actually be able to use them.
Especially if you never train with fight or flight chemicals floating about the old brain pan.

RynoGreene
9/01/2016 3:10pm,
Goodlun's kind of got it. There are more sensitive areas of the body. But if you cannot connect a jab (entire fist) to any spot of a boxer's head while he bobs and weaves, your chances of getting a single knuckle into that small accupoint below your opponent's eye are pretty low.

With that being said, you can sometimes pull off more broad-stroke pressure point shots. Specifically, Thai-style round kicks to the outer mid thigh, or inner lower thigh come to mind, and tend to dead-leg opponents.

BKR
9/01/2016 3:13pm,
Well for one its not bullshit *GASP* or well it is but its bullshit like most dead martial arts are bullshit.
There are such things as pressure points. They typically hurt a bit more than other points when you put serious pressure on them.
So if you just stand there and let me poke at them you will feel them. Since you can feel them your going to be like holy **** this **** is real.
If you don't train with aliveness you can make believe that you will actually be able to use them.
Especially if you never train with fight or flight chemicals floating about the old brain pan.

The back of the elbow (that hurts so bad when it's gets attacked in an armbar) is real pressure point, as is the carotid triangle (Vagus Nerve etc) that we press when we gently strangle each other.

Among others, like some spots on the IT band (outside leg kids), etc.

I sometimes think that after the real need for H2H combat was gone, legends built up over time, either on purpose or as part of the normal mostly oral tradition of martial arts before widespread literacy.

BackFistMonkey
9/01/2016 3:14pm,
Specifically, Thai-style round kicks to the outer mid thigh, or inner lower thigh come to mind, and tend to dead-leg opponents.
Yes the ole Pressure Point Guard Escape uses those too. You're suppose to elbow and finger poke at them until the silly grappler lets you go.

goodlun
9/01/2016 3:35pm,
I sometimes think that after the real need for H2H combat was gone, legends built up over time, either on purpose or as part of the normal mostly oral tradition of martial arts before widespread literacy.

I honestly think its more of theory craft, that these guys sit around and think up ways to hurt someone, then try it on someone that isn't resisting and of course it works at that time. They then never test it beyond that. As opposed to broken good techniques. Though we see a fair amount of those as well.

BKR
9/01/2016 3:38pm,
I honestly think its more of theory craft, that these guys sit around and think up ways to hurt someone, then try it on someone that isn't resisting and of course it works at that time. They then never test it beyond that. As opposed to broken good techniques. Though we see a fair amount of those as well.

Well, in the Far East, you had/have the whole traditional/primitive medicine thing going on what with meridians, chi, etc, from which that sort of thing could have been theory-crafted. Given the fact that some of it works some of the time...

goodlun
9/01/2016 3:48pm,
Well, in the Far East, you had/have the whole traditional/primitive medicine thing going on what with meridians, chi, etc, from which that sort of thing could have been theory-crafted. Given the fact that some of it works some of the time...

Massage seems to work pretty well, also placebo is a very wonderful thing. As well as the brains ability to see patterns, its one of the biggest problems we face is the bit of dopamine we get when we see corresponding things. I push here and there, and a week later everything is back to normal well...
Correlation may not equal causality but it does equal a nice little squirt in the brain making you feel smarter.

mrtnira
9/01/2016 6:56pm,
There is some normal physical validity with "pressure points", but there was a lot of mysticism and occult involved with the older training and mythology of traditional training from the Far East.

When I was still sparring, someone hit me on my forearm. My arm went numb after about 30 seconds. In a condition of real combat in ancient times that would have been opportunity for death or gross injury. The well timed strike hit a nerve bundle and when my arm failed it created an opening for my opponent to attack me. In ancient times, the cause of the limb to fail would have been explained through the cultural understanding and medical world view of traditional Chinese medicine and associated with pressure points, meridians, and chi/qi.

The strike worked for more purely physical reasons.

However, if the hit had been just a little off physically, or if the strike was ill-timed (less than maximized impact on the nerve bundle), would it have worked? Probably not. And, if it didn't work would my opponent even consider the idea of pressure points again? "I tried that and it didn't work," might be a natural response to a failed use of pressure points.

I once read that 40% of the population is open to responding to nerve and pressure point strikes. The other 60% will not be impacted by them, so to that group the idea is just myth and garbage thought. Today, in 2016, I don't know the source of the statistic. I read it 20 years ago when I was focusing on this part of Chinese medicine (student of Asian history doing continuing study, what is Traditional Chinese Medicine, how did it develop, etc.) It may be an extrapolation from numbers gathered by tests on the efficacy of acupuncture in traditional Chinese medicine, but I don't have those documents any longer.

It comes down to the person. If pressure points have worked on them, they will be in the group of people who give pressure points credence because it was an experiential reality. If pressure points strikes have not worked on them, or have not worked for them, you can expect that group of people to ignore the theory or practice because for them it didn't work.

BKR
9/01/2016 7:05pm,
There is some normal physical validity with "pressure points", but there was a lot of mysticism and occult involved with the older training and mythology of traditional training from the Far East.

When I was still sparring, someone hit me on my forearm. My arm went numb after about 30 seconds. In a condition of real combat in ancient times that would have been opportunity for death or gross injury. The well timed strike hit a nerve bundle and when my arm failed it created an opening for my opponent to attack me. In ancient times, the cause of the limb to fail would have been explained through the cultural understanding and medical world view of traditional Chinese medicine and associated with pressure points, meridians, and chi/qi.

The strike worked for more purely physical reasons.

However, if the hit had been just a little off physically, or if the strike was ill-timed (less than maximized impact on the nerve bundle), would it have worked? Probably not. And, if it didn't work would my opponent even consider the idea of pressure points again? "I tried that and it didn't work," might be a natural response to a failed use of pressure points.

I once read that 40% of the population is open to responding to nerve and pressure point strikes. The other 60% will not be impacted by them, so to that group the idea is just myth and garbage thought. Today, in 2016, I don't know the source of the statistic. I read it 20 years ago when I was focusing on this part of Chinese medicine (student of Asian history doing continuing study, what is Traditional Chinese Medicine, how did it develop, etc.) It may be an extrapolation from numbers gathered by tests on the efficacy of acupuncture in traditional Chinese medicine, but I don't have those documents any longer.

It comes down to the person. If pressure points have worked on them, they will be in the group of people who give pressure points credence because it was an experiential reality. If pressure points strikes have not worked on them, or have not worked for them, you can expect that group of people to ignore the theory or practice because for them it didn't work.

The Dillman-ites use that as an explanation when a pressure point attack doesn't work...some people are immune to them.

mrtnira
9/01/2016 7:15pm,
I don't know anyone trained by Dillman (that I know of). Some of them may be hiding behind that explanation. It's not within my realm of experience or personal knowledge.

Mr. Machette
9/01/2016 9:35pm,
It's all real. 100%
It's just not spoken of with initiates.
Only masters are taught the real Dim Mak.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBkDDXDJHK8

Mr. Machette
9/01/2016 9:54pm,
They had a big problem with Dim Mak master crime sprees back in the 90's...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhuKPFiZtjE

BKR
9/02/2016 12:30pm,
I don't know anyone trained by Dillman (that I know of). Some of them may be hiding behind that explanation. It's not within my realm of experience or personal knowledge.

I've been to two seminars given by one of his "students" (more like franchisee). That is where got my information from regarding percentages.

So, yeah, they hid behind it...