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Holy Moment
8/01/2016 3:25pm,
Penis.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGAM3sES6ss

ghost55
8/01/2016 11:08pm,
You think a month is enough time for this one?

Mr. Machette
8/01/2016 11:11pm,
You think a month is enough time for this one?
That's the beauty of it. Next month is Aikido sucks month too. As was last month...

goodlun
8/01/2016 11:16pm,
I think what sucks the most is I really want aikido to work, no not the crazy chi bullshit, just the perfect redirecting of opponents with like zero force.
I want that **** to be as awesome as it was in Ninjas and Superspies(though that had its fair share of chi awesomeness)

Rand
8/01/2016 11:53pm,
I like how they never demonstrate on someone who can actually shoot a single or a double.

Rand
8/01/2016 11:55pm,
I think what sucks the most is I really want aikido to work, no not the crazy chi bullshit, just the perfect redirecting of opponents with like zero force.

Same. I thought it was funny that in Bio Hunter (at least the 90's US live action version with Mark Hamill) the protagonist trains Aikido, but it seems to work mostly because he turns into an alien super soldier.

Holy Moment
8/02/2016 5:42am,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4foqnKs9dk

Dr. Gonzo
8/02/2016 7:43am,
Penis.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGAM3sES6ss

First, correctly done rotation while going into the shooters shot rather going away from it, as an alternative to countering with a sprawl or down block or front headlock or funk does work in high level wrestling. See Randy Lewis's old wrestling matches for an example of a master of using this approach against other top wrestlers.

Second, things change for wrestlers when someone puts their hand directly on our eyes or nose when we are doing an otherwise very high percentage sport technique. Unless we are used to dealing with that, it can take us out of our model. In particular, the Aikido shomenate to the face as practiced by the less dancie-dance schools can be a remarkably effective and brutal technique with which to throw or counter throw someone if the balance gets taken by it. Yamashita from Judo often demonstrated that the best way to achieve kuzushi is to drive the head back putting the opponent on their heels or to drive their head straight down by the most efficient means possible.

Third, if someone takes a shot from too far away, or with their ass/belly button away from their target, leading with their head bending at the waist (Except for a John/Pat Smith low shot single leg properly executed), than this Aikido technique could work, and the shooter would also be a prime target for a knee to the face, a kick to the face, an uppercut, or a submission face/head/neck/spine lock or guillotine or front headlock.

So in the context of "if someone does a lousy shot, it is this easy to take them down because their balance and posture is already off" this technique could work.

And before anyone says no one would shoot that badly, only people who have little or no track record actually doing MMA or Vale Tudo would think that. When fighters get fatigued or tagged with shots, they often have the reflexive if incorrect tendency to take lousy shots with bad posture and from too far way.

Famously some of the more well known BJJ practitioners took some shots like this in well televised matches from too far away and paid for it by either getting knocked out or tagged with some good shots, etc.

I am not Aikidoka, but if I had three lifetimes, I would surely study Aikido, Tai Chi, most sports, and all the arts and sciences.

The Aikido people by and large seem to have good falling skills, good posture, decent footwork, and I would suspect that what they do lowers stress induced negative body chemistry because it seems chill and to promote a positive attitude.

I would also note that if you read the letters from Japan from before World War II, Aikido (called by various names) was reported to have been practiced competitively against Judo in challenge matches, in which in was reported to fare decently, and to be accepted into Aikido training you were supposed to already have had a documented competency in a violent art such as Judo, Sword, or Karate.

I don't know enough about Aikido practice to comment deeply on it, but most of what they demonstrate seems rooted in some principle found in other combat sports.

The founder of Aikido was certainly a showman, cult participant/founder and lets be honest either a bit of a fraud or I don't understand the culture well enough to get it.

His own teacher, however, had a reputation for being a take all comers in a real fight, win or lose, and seems to have probably been a legitimate bad ass, to the point that it was recorded in letters that the founder of Aikido frequently found reason to temporarily leave town if his former teacher was coming for a visit.

ermghoti
8/02/2016 8:48am,
I think what sucks the most is I really want aikido to work, no not the crazy chi bullshit, just the perfect redirecting of opponents with like zero force.

Oh, you mean judo?

ermghoti
8/02/2016 8:56am,
I am not Aikidoka, but if I had three lifetimes, I would surely study Aikido

Sounds about right. If I study martial arts for 150 years, I'll eventually take a look at aikido too.


The Aikido people by and large seem to have good falling skills, good posture, decent footwork, and I would suspect that what they do lowers stress induced negative body chemistry because it seems chill and to promote a positive attitude.

Yoga with breakfalls. People I know do aikido, and agree with that assessment, and none of us have a problem with that.


I would also note that if you read the letters from Japan from before World War II, Aikido (called by various names) was reported to have been practiced competitively against Judo in challenge matches, in which in was reported to fare decently, and to be accepted into Aikido training you were supposed to already have had a documented competency in a violent art such as Judo, Sword, or Karate.

Those days, schools, and instructors are mostly gone. Aikido as a concentration overlaid on an existing fighting skillset is definitely gone.


I don't know enough about Aikido practice to comment deeply on it, but most of what they demonstrate seems rooted in some principle found in other combat sports.

The same applies to a lot of arts that are generally no longer pressure tested in training.


The founder of Aikido was certainly a showman, cult participant/founder and lets be honest either a bit of a fraud or I don't understand the culture well enough to get it.

Agreed.


His own teacher, however, had a reputation for being a take all comers in a real fight, win or lose, and seems to have probably been a legitimate bad ass, to the point that it was recorded in letters that the founder of Aikido frequently found reason to temporarily leave town if his former teacher was coming for a visit.

As mentioned, gone now. The French army used to be fearsome too [/troll].

It seems like "good" aikido, when it can be found, is so close to judo that, well, just do judo. It doesn't have the QC issues.

goodlun
8/02/2016 11:18am,
Oh, you mean judo?

What are the big and little differences between small circle JJ / Aikido / Judo?
Seems like they all share a very similar philosophy so why is it one of them works the other 2 kind of work.

Raycetpfl
8/02/2016 11:24am,
What are the big and little differences between small circle JJ / Aikido / Judo?
Seems like they all share a very similar philosophy so why is it one of them works the other 2 kind of work.

Punk bitchery.

BKR
8/02/2016 11:25am,
I think what sucks the most is I really want aikido to work, no not the crazy chi bullshit, just the perfect redirecting of opponents with like zero force.
I want that **** to be as awesome as it was in Ninjas and Superspies(though that had its fair share of chi awesomeness)

It does work to some degree. It's just very very difficult to do. Once you are locked up with someone grappling, it gets even harder to do. Add in the pretty much complete lack of realistic force-on-force training, and it's about what M. Ueshiba intended, a spiritual practice,not a "fighting" martial art.

I think people have unrealistic expectations about aikido is a huge part of it's problems. Exacerbated by the "aikido vs tackle" type stuff as posted in this thread, for example.

Anybody who has had a good wrestler work singles/doubles on them knows that simple deflection and grabbing the head won't work. Sure, I can do it to little kid wrestlers and even some low level high school kids, but not a well trained wrestler.

Aikido pretty much suffers from the same thing many "TMA" do...the lack of force on force training and some sort of randori/free sparring leads to unrealistic expectations regarding real-world performance.

goodlun
8/02/2016 11:29am,
Anybody who has had a good wrestler work singles/doubles on them knows that simple deflection and grabbing the head won't work. Sure, I can do it to little kid wrestlers and even some low level high school kids, but not a well trained wrestler.

Stopping a good wrestler is hard enough even when you know what to do. When you have 0 clues from a total lack of force on force training its going to be next to impossible.

BKR
8/02/2016 11:31am,
First, correctly done rotation while going into the shooters shot rather going away from it, as an alternative to countering with a sprawl or down block or front headlock or funk does work in high level wrestling. See Randy Lewis's old wrestling matches for an example of a master of using this approach against other top wrestlers.

Second, things change for wrestlers when someone puts their hand directly on our eyes or nose when we are doing an otherwise very high percentage sport technique. Unless we are used to dealing with that, it can take us out of our model. In particular, the Aikido shomenate to the face as practiced by the less dancie-dance schools can be a remarkably effective and brutal technique with which to throw or counter throw someone if the balance gets taken by it. Yamashita from Judo often demonstrated that the best way to achieve kuzushi is to drive the head back putting the opponent on their heels or to drive their head straight down by the most efficient means possible.

Third, if someone takes a shot from too far away, or with their ass/belly button away from their target, leading with their head bending at the waist (Except for a John/Pat Smith low shot single leg properly executed), than this Aikido technique could work, and the shooter would also be a prime target for a knee to the face, a kick to the face, an uppercut, or a submission face/head/neck/spine lock or guillotine or front headlock.

So in the context of "if someone does a lousy shot, it is this easy to take them down because their balance and posture is already off" this technique could work.

And before anyone says no one would shoot that badly, only people who have little or no track record actually doing MMA or Vale Tudo would think that. When fighters get fatigued or tagged with shots, they often have the reflexive if incorrect tendency to take lousy shots with bad posture and from too far way.

Famously some of the more well known BJJ practitioners took some shots like this in well televised matches from too far away and paid for it by either getting knocked out or tagged with some good shots, etc.

I am not Aikidoka, but if I had three lifetimes, I would surely study Aikido, Tai Chi, most sports, and all the arts and sciences.

The Aikido people by and large seem to have good falling skills, good posture, decent footwork, and I would suspect that what they do lowers stress induced negative body chemistry because it seems chill and to promote a positive attitude.

I would also note that if you read the letters from Japan from before World War II, Aikido (called by various names) was reported to have been practiced competitively against Judo in challenge matches, in which in was reported to fare decently, and to be accepted into Aikido training you were supposed to already have had a documented competency in a violent art such as Judo, Sword, or Karate.

I don't know enough about Aikido practice to comment deeply on it, but most of what they demonstrate seems rooted in some principle found in other combat sports.

The founder of Aikido was certainly a showman, cult participant/founder and lets be honest either a bit of a fraud or I don't understand the culture well enough to get it.

His own teacher, however, had a reputation for being a take all comers in a real fight, win or lose, and seems to have probably been a legitimate bad ass, to the point that it was recorded in letters that the founder of Aikido frequently found reason to temporarily leave town if his former teacher was coming for a visit.

Nice post, Bill.

Over on the old Judo Forum, someone had posted some translations of documents that had detailed instructions for aikidoka on how to deal with judoka. Specific techniques and strategies. These were all pre-WW2, obviously.

You may be using the same source(s) I've seen to inform your post here.

Raycetpfl
8/02/2016 11:38am,
It does work to some degree. It's just very very difficult to do. Once you are locked up with someone grappling, it gets even harder to do. Add in the pretty much complete lack of realistic force-on-force training, and it's about what M. Ueshiba intended, a spiritual practice,not a "fighting" martial art.

I think people have unrealistic expectations about aikido is a huge part of it's problems. Exacerbated by the "aikido vs tackle" type stuff as posted in this thread, for example.

Anybody who has had a good wrestler work singles/doubles on them knows that simple deflection and grabbing the head won't work. Sure, I can do it to little kid wrestlers and even some low level high school kids, but not a well trained wrestler.

Aikido pretty much suffers from the same thing many "TMA" do...the lack of force on force training and some sort of randori/free sparring leads to unrealistic expectations regarding real-world performance.

I second this notion. I also feel like they have a better chance of avoiding a shooting takedown than throws or trips from the clinch.
There's little to no ability to "redirect" my grips from the clinch in the way that they claim. That paired with decent boxing principles for the clinch entry they just don't seem to have an answer for these problems.