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BackFistMonkey
6/20/2016 8:04am,
Due to recent local events (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-ohio-gun-shop-owner-killed-20160619-story.html) and some of the insane reactions from some people I know in that online kind of know. Spurred me to create this post.


This time a gun shop owner was viciously killed in his own store while a coworker taught a Concealed Carry class.

None of their guns saved them.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/06/19/ohio-gun-shop-owner-killed-during-concealed-carry-class.html

*edit*

I think this also answers the question as to why I, personally, do not CC firearms I checked these guys out in passing a while back.
Which surprisingly enough, didn't meet the Armory's posting standards on it's own. It was probably too close to call at first glance. Poe's Law get's me all the time.

But more to the point. Why did these "experts" at least two in the store. Allow someone to die... during a Concealed Carry gun safety course. There is no such thing as magic. Things never "just happen".

How does one know that we are picking a good instructor? Online everyone is an expert, new ones show up here all the time for example.
I think we have duty to show people what to look for when it comes to good firearm instruction. Not talking about fancy tactical shooting, but what traits and qualifications should your CC Instructor have?

submessenger
6/20/2016 8:23am,
This is a good topic. The guy I did my CCW training with turned out to be a complete fraud (as far as his credentials, a stolen valor guy). I wish I had saved his name and info.

From what I can tell, there are basically no education requirements put out by the State of Florida with regards to who can train you; only, that you must have training. The training is a little better defined, but still leaves large gaps in who can actually do the training:


1. Completion of any hunter education or hunter safety course approved by the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission or a similar agency of another state;
2. Completion of any National Rifle Association firearms safety or training course;
3. Completion of any firearms safety or training course or class available to the general public offered by a law enforcement agency, junior college, college, or private or public institution or organization or firearms training school, using instructors certified by the National Rifle Association, Criminal Justice Standards and Training Commission, or the Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services;
4. Completion of any law enforcement firearms safety or training course or class offered for security guards, investigators, special deputies, or any division or subdivision of a law enforcement agency or security enforcement;
5. Presents evidence of equivalent experience with a firearm through participation in organized shooting competition or military service;
6. Is licensed or has been licensed to carry a firearm in this state or a county or municipality of this state, unless such license has been revoked for cause; or
7. Completion of any firearms training or safety course or class conducted by a state-certified or National Rifle Association certified firearms instructor;

Ming Loyalist
6/20/2016 9:10am,
while it's not a CCW class, i'll be taking a tactical shotgun class next month at my range. the guys running my range are very good about safety, but i haven't worked with this instructor before. obviously if i feel like it's an unsafe environment i will nope the **** out right away.

if i like his shotgun class, there's an advanced pistol class next.

as far as how i know it's a good class? i really don't other than having shot at this range for 6 months now, and getting to know the manager pretty well. i don't think he would have anyone dangerous teaching at his range, but my options are very limited in terms of classes within NYC proper. i will be looking into other options if i am willing to travel, although the NYC laws make that dicey. my pistol can only leave NYC with explicit permission from NYPD, so once i find an out of town course that i want to take, i'll try asking permission to travel with my pistol outside of NYC, if they won't give permission i'll have to find a place that will rent me a similar one.

Devil
6/20/2016 9:19am,
I want a concealed carry instructor with a law enforcement background or a background in criminal law. In my opinion, the legal portion of the self defense curriculum is the most important. But then again, I was already proficient with firearms when I took the course so that didn't matter much to me. I wanted to know how to stay out of prison while increasing my personal safety.

If it's a cop teaching the class I want an experienced one. Not some rookie.

Raycetpfl
6/20/2016 9:20am,
This is a good topic. The guy I did my CCW training with turned out to be a complete fraud (as far as his credentials, a stolen valor guy). I wish I had saved his name and info.

From what I can tell, there are basically no education requirements put out by the State of Florida with regards to who can train you; only, that you must have training. The training is a little better defined, but still leaves large gaps in who can actually do the training:

You're military so you didn't need a course. Your time in basic makes you qualified. I used my hunter safety course for my required training. It exceeds the needed hours of firearm training and its free.

Raycetpfl
6/20/2016 9:26am,
. I wanted to know how to stay out of prison while increasing my personal safety..

1. Make sure only one story can be told. The lies of an attacker could muddy the waters. It's best if they can't give a statement.

Devil
6/20/2016 9:28am,
1. Make sure only one story can be told. The lies of an attacker could muddy the waters. It's best if they can't give a statement.

Whatever happens, don't say **** to the cops. Let them talk to your lawyer.

Raycetpfl
6/20/2016 9:43am,
I thick idpa and ipsc competition experience would be a real plus for shooting instructors.

I started shooting pistols when I was 5 so didn't really need someone to show me how a gun works.
I am with devil for the most part on what the important part of a ccw class would be, the law. I have read all of Fl's .790 (gun laws)laws a lot but Most people don't know where they are even allowed and not allowed to carry.

Devil
6/20/2016 9:48am,
I thick idpa and ipsc competition experience would be a real plus for shooting instructors.

I started shooting pistols when I was 5 so didn't really need someone to show me how a gun works.
I am with devil for the most part on what the important part of a ccw class would be, the law. I have read all of Fl's .790 (gun laws)laws a lot but Most people don't know where they are even allowed and not allowed to carry.

I think it's also easy to forget the particular restrictions on your self defense rights. Of course they vary from state to state. If you're not making an effort to keep **** in the front of your brain, things can go poorly for you. For instance, North Carolina is not a stand your ground state and your ass will go to prison for doing **** you can do legally in Florida.

submessenger
6/20/2016 9:53am,
You're military so you didn't need a course. Your time in basic makes you qualified. I used my hunter safety course for my required training. It exceeds the needed hours of firearm training and its free.

Had I known that, then... the marketing (radio, shops, etc.) was all "you need to take a course," so that's what I did. On the positive side, he told me how to make an appointment to shortcut the bureaucracy wait, which is what I did. It was worth the $20, but the guy still turned out to be a scumbag.


1. Make sure only one story can be told. The lies of an attacker could muddy the waters. It's best if they can't give a statement.
That was part of his course, actually. He was a little more blunt, even did a simulated 911 call with all the song and dance. Went something like this:

"Hello, 911? I'm being attacked. He's got a gun! BLAM BLAM! Hello, I need help, he's still after me! BLAM BLAM!"

It *is* Florida, but I don't think an "approved," course would recommend nor certify that training. The gun store, actually reputable nice guys, fired him shortly after that.

Devil
6/20/2016 10:01am,
The other truth that isn't often talked about is that legal consequences may vary from location to location within your own home state. Local law enforcement's initial interpretations of a crime scene can be all over the place.

I heard about an instance in a rural county in my home state where a homeowner was blasting away with a shotgun as a thief was fleeing his property in a truck. You can't do that. You can't shoot at somebody here who is fleeing solely to defend property. If he's kidnapping your kid, that's another story. Anyway, he didn't hit the guy and the local law enforcement was sympathetic.

I've also heard of a situation where a home invader appeared to have been executed after being shot and wounded. You can't do that, not even with our castle doctrine. You can shoot, but you can't execute a person who is no longer a threat. Of course all that is open to interpretation and in this situation the Sheriff was like "**** him." So nothing came of it.

Raycetpfl
6/20/2016 10:02am,
I think it's also easy to forget the particular restrictions on your self defense rights. Of course they vary from state to state. If you're not making an effort to keep **** in the front of your brain, things can go poorly for you. For instance, North Carolina is not a stand your ground state and your ass will go to prison for doing **** you can do legally in Florida.

Without stand your ground type laws having a gun isn't as good of an idea. The duty to retreat gets weird.

Devil
6/20/2016 10:06am,
Without stand your ground type laws having a gun isn't as good of an idea. The duty to retreat gets weird.

It's better to have stand your ground, for sure. But I think the law is generally going to be in your favor if you're genuinely not walking around trying to start **** with people just so you can shoot them. You're not required to retreat if a reasonable person would conclude that you couldn't for some reason. A good lawyer should be able to meet that standard if you don't **** up and say stupid **** to the cops.

submessenger
6/20/2016 10:20am,
Let's try to keep this on topic, specifically for CC instruction. Else, please (re)join the Gun Control mega.

Raycetpfl
6/20/2016 10:24am,
The other truth that isn't often talked about is that legal consequences may vary from location to location within your own home state. Local law enforcement's initial interpretations of a crime scene can be all over the place.

I heard about an instance in a rural county in my home state where a homeowner was blasting away with a shotgun as a thief was fleeing his property in a truck. You can't do that. You can't shoot at somebody here who is fleeing solely to defend property. If he's kidnapping your kid, that's another story. Anyway, he didn't hit the guy and the local law enforcement was sympathetic.

I've also heard of a situation where a home invader appeared to have been executed after being shot and wounded. You can't do that, not even with our castle doctrine. You can shoot, but you can't execute a person who is no longer a threat. Of course all that is open to interpretation and in this situation the Sheriff was like "**** him." So nothing came of it.

I have a friend that fired at a car thief that was driving away while stealing his '64 impala. He was charged with discharging a firearm in St. Pete city limits.
Things like this spurred fl state to legislate the .790 laws that supersede any and all city and county laws on firearms. Pinellas County (the beach part of Tampa Bay) had horrible gun laws that made it really hard to carry and use a boat to hunt. You weren't allowed to carry in a county park..... but that's where all the boat slips are. Plus it's state law that you can open carry while hunting ,hiking or fishing but the county laws prohibited it. Remember we have sharks and 14ft 1000 lb. reptIles here, having a pistol fishing isnt a silly idea. Local law use to make it hard in those places.

Raycetpfl
6/20/2016 10:25am,
Let's try to keep this on topic, specifically for CC instruction. Else, please (re)join the Gun Control mega.

Will do.