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Jim Giant
4/21/2016 8:03pm,
My HEMA group normally trains sword and staffs but today we had a free sparring session where we got to spar with whatever we wanted against whoever we wanted.

I love what we do but it has a rather limited real world application so I decided to use this time to try out a few scenarios involving knives.

First I tried hand to hand vs knife (CS synthetic). The parameters I set were any slash or thrust I received counted as me losing and the knife wielder lost if I managed to punch them in the face or grapple them to the floor.

Tried this 5 times. I gave it a bloody good shot, good evading, landed some low leg kicks, nearly kicked the knife out of their hand and managed to close in to grappling range a couple of times. Wasn't good enough however, I still lost every time. Had it been real I probably would have killed him twice but would have bled out shortly after.

Next up we tried sword vs cane. Rules we used for this were knife attack is an instant kill but the cane needed to hit with a high enough intensity that it would realistically slow the person down enough for you to follow up and incapacitate them (heavy padding was used for this).

We did this both ways around, I won 5 times in a row with the cane, not remotely challenging. Utilise your reach, don't let them close in and hit them hard in the head till they stop fighting. Due to our training my partner was using the cane too much like a sword, slashing, draw cutting, high speed but little power etc. After explaining a few things and making sure he knew I was OK being struck hard he won the next 3 with no issue. Seriously considering custom making a cane for self defence after that!

Finally we did some 2 vs 1 sparring with the single person using a knife. Video below:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAjnexfcYQY

It's worth noting that HEMA is generally point based for genuine safety reasons so most people I train with don't have an MMA mindset. For that reason I pulled my flying kick at the end and aimed for the shoulder knowing that they would stop fighting at that point.

We had one more go after this and I managed to take control of the knife wielder's blade and choke them out just after he'd cut my mate's wrists, unfortunately the battery died so I didn't get it on film.

Seems like with a small skill gap two men can take out a knife wielder barehanded but the only opportunity you're likely to get is flying in when your mate is in the middle of getting cut up lol.

Next time I try this I'd like to use some improvised weapons/shields like bags and chairs and try out a few other tactics barehanded.

Anyone else done these types of experiments? any advice to make the sparring more realistic without being too dangerous?

BKR
4/22/2016 1:28pm,
My HEMA group normally trains sword and staffs but today we had a free sparring session where we got to spar with whatever we wanted against whoever we wanted.

I love what we do but it has a rather limited real world application so I decided to use this time to try out a few scenarios involving knives.

First I tried hand to hand vs knife (CS synthetic). The parameters I set were any slash or thrust I received counted as me losing and the knife wielder lost if I managed to punch them in the face or grapple them to the floor.

Tried this 5 times. I gave it a bloody good shot, good evading, landed some low leg kicks, nearly kicked the knife out of their hand and managed to close in to grappling range a couple of times. Wasn't good enough however, I still lost every time. Had it been real I probably would have killed him twice but would have bled out shortly after.

Next up we tried sword vs cane. Rules we used for this were knife attack is an instant kill but the cane needed to hit with a high enough intensity that it would realistically slow the person down enough for you to follow up and incapacitate them (heavy padding was used for this).

We did this both ways around, I won 5 times in a row with the cane, not remotely challenging. Utilise your reach, don't let them close in and hit them hard in the head till they stop fighting. Due to our training my partner was using the cane too much like a sword, slashing, draw cutting, high speed but little power etc. After explaining a few things and making sure he knew I was OK being struck hard he won the next 3 with no issue. Seriously considering custom making a cane for self defence after that!

Finally we did some 2 vs 1 sparring with the single person using a knife. Video below:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAjnexfcYQY

It's worth noting that HEMA is generally point based for genuine safety reasons so most people I train with don't have an MMA mindset. For that reason I pulled my flying kick at the end and aimed for the shoulder knowing that they would stop fighting at that point.

We had one more go after this and I managed to take control of the knife wielder's blade and choke them out just after he'd cut my mate's wrists, unfortunately the battery died so I didn't get it on film.

Seems like with a small skill gap two men can take out a knife wielder barehanded but the only opportunity you're likely to get is flying in when your mate is in the middle of getting cut up lol.

Next time I try this I'd like to use some improvised weapons/shields like bags and chairs and try out a few other tactics barehanded.

Anyone else done these types of experiments? any advice to make the sparring more realistic without being too dangerous?

More realistic ?

As instructor, randomly select students the night before class and give them the fake knives. Tell them to conceal the knives, and that they can attack anybody they want, randomly, in class the next day, at any time, once class has started, drawing from concealment. If that is too dangerous, you can tell them to just use their hand to poke/slash and yell "knife attack!" when they launch...

I like the idea of having chairs and other common things available to use to defend with in event of an attack.

Jim Giant
4/22/2016 3:47pm,
More realistic ?

As instructor, randomly select students the night before class and give them the fake knives. Tell them to conceal the knives, and that they can attack anybody they want, randomly, in class the next day, at any time, once class has started, drawing from concealment. If that is too dangerous, you can tell them to just use their hand to poke/slash and yell "knife attack!" when they launch...

I like the idea of having chairs and other common things available to use to defend with in event of an attack.

I'm not the instructor but I like the idea of having people randomly attack, I'll suggest the idea.

Jim Giant
4/22/2016 9:33pm,
Regular backsword sparring from the same night.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEnlOUSvq34

Jim Giant
4/23/2016 11:08am,
Video talking about the results of the knife defence experiments.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsMbkmILG2Y

ChenPengFi
4/23/2016 6:04pm,
any advice to make the sparring more realistic without being too dangerous?

I think the http://www.shocknife.com/ is a great invention.

I think "sewing machine" attacks are more realistic than lunging slashes and the 2 on 1 seemed too contrived.

Jim Giant
4/23/2016 6:31pm,
I think the http://www.shocknife.com/ is a great invention.

I think "sewing machine" attacks are more realistic than lunging slashes and the 2 on 1 seemed too contrived.

I really like the idea of the shocknife. Thanks for the recomendation, I'll buy a couple when I have the spare cash. Yeah the 2 on 1 was pretty contrived, just wanted to experiment a little. Wish I could have captured some of the other footage.

ChenPengFi
4/23/2016 6:55pm,
I really like the idea of the shocknife. Thanks for the recomendation, I'll buy a couple when I have the spare cash. Yeah the 2 on 1 was pretty contrived, just wanted to experiment a little. Wish I could have captured some of the other footage.

I didn't get what the goal was based on what I saw.
Were they supposed to be restraining the knife guy? Killing? Disarming?
Why are they engaging?

gregaquaman
4/24/2016 8:34am,
Your two guys suck. If your mate is getting stabbed you want to be a lot quicker to bash the bloke.

Edit. Sorry you did actually mention that.

goodlun
4/25/2016 12:01pm,
The cane things suffers from the noncontinuous training issues.

A hard strike from a cane may or slow someone down but its not likely keep a really determined attacker on the outside.
Once they are on the inside its all over for you.

I see the issue in some forms of FMA even the idea that they treat Knives/sticks more like light sabers than knives or sticks.

A knife strike might be fatal but its not final. This is the trickiest mindset to work with when it comes to weapons training of any kind.

You may have doomed me to death but you probably didn't "stop" me.

Continuous sparing is so important for this reason.

Jim Giant
4/25/2016 12:23pm,
Your two guys suck. If your mate is getting stabbed you want to be a lot quicker to bash the bloke.

Edit. Sorry you did actually mention that.

They haven't been training for as long as me and unfortunately there's only a few guys I train with who have a martial mindset.

Jim Giant
4/25/2016 12:29pm,
The cane things suffers from the noncontinuous training issues.

A hard strike from a cane may or slow someone down but its not likely keep a really determined attacker on the outside.
Once they are on the inside its all over for you.

I see the issue in some forms of FMA even the idea that they treat Knives/sticks more like light sabers than knives or sticks.

A knife strike might be fatal but its not final. This is the trickiest mindset to work with when it comes to weapons training of any kind.

You may have doomed me to death but you probably didn't "stop" me.

Continuous sparing is so important for this reason.

The reason we stopped after the first stab/cut is because this is something we should be trying to avoid at all costs but I agree it will teach some very bad habits.

After chatting to someone in the comment section I think the best solution would be counting it as a loss if you get stabbed but carrying on fighting anyway. Would you agree with this?

We generally don't count very light strikes when sparring with swords and esspecially with quaterstaffs.

goodlun
4/25/2016 12:36pm,
I think the best solution would be counting it as a loss if you get stabbed but carrying on fighting anyway.

I think a whole different mindset needs to be taken with this, get away from the win or loss mindset.
The mindset should be if you get into a knife fight you have already lost.

As far as I am concerned after playing around with knife sparring with people that have been doing this for a very long time and still getting cuts on them.
The only idea should be to get the **** away from anyone that deploys a knife.
The whole idea of squaring off with someone with a deployed knife is fucking stupid.

Krampus
4/25/2016 12:41pm,
Nothing triggers a social animal / fight or flight "I think I prefer flight" and "I don't want to fight anymore" response like a stab wound.
Even a tiny one.
I've gotten to see a couple of these encounters up close and personal,
and the smallest cut takes the fight out of otherwise tough guys
quicker than air leaving a leaking balloon.

goodlun
4/25/2016 1:10pm,
Nothing triggers a social animal / fight or flight "I think I prefer flight" and "I don't want to fight anymore" response like a stab wound.
Even a tiny one.
I've gotten to see a couple of these encounters up close and personal,
and the smallest cut takes the fight out of otherwise tough guys
quicker than air leaving a leaking balloon.

That of course is if they know they have been stabbed.
That is of course another great layer of why fucking with knives sucks.
You might not even fucking know you have been tagged with one until its all over.
This is actually is reported to happen quite a bit when knives enter a fight.
"I didn't even know he had a knife or that I had even been cut" has been said on more than one occasion.

Krampus
4/25/2016 1:14pm,
That of course is if they know they have been stabbed.
That is of course another great layer of why fucking with knives sucks.
You might not even fucking know you have been tagged with one until its all over.
This is actually is reported to happen quite a bit when knives enter a fight.
"I didn't even know he had a knife or that I had even been cut" has been said on more than one occasion.

Good point.
The lesser wounds may not provoke the shock response immediately.
And ironically, may trigger more of the social brain "I quit" response,
Or the screaming in pain, "holy **** that hurt" response,
More than the potentially deadly wounds.
You just never know, I guess...