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Gosai
1/27/2016 8:10pm,
Essentially, after certain issues prevented me from attending my regular Judo classes for a while, I've found upon my return that my already less than stellar skills have basically gone from 'below average' to 'abysmal'. So, I've decided to try and direct my efforts at taking a more focused and refined approach to resuming my training. To this end, I'm finally picking out a handful of techniques to work on so I can have a couple reliable techniques rather than re-reviewing large portions and being bad at all of them.

I seem to recall advice to the effect that these techniques should have something you can combo them to/from when using them. Which is the bulk of my reasoning for this post. Looking for advice on what the most logical 'combos' to build off of my preferred moves might be.

O Guruma
Koshi Guruma

O Soto Gari
De Ashi Harai
(I feel like these two might be able to be combo'd already)

I think four might be a good starting point. But I've also been told that a good plan would be to have one throw that towards each direction. (Backwards, forwards, left and right obviously)

Anyway, I figured I'd ramble at the Judoka on the board and see if any of you fellows might help me out.

BKR
1/27/2016 8:32pm,
So how long did you do Judo, how much (often), how old are you, all the standard stuff. Post some video, too, that would help. Judo is individual, like everything else. Do you plan to compete ?

If you only want technique, as in throws, then work on ouchi gari, kouchi gari, De Ashi Barai, and Kosoto Gari. You need ashi waza...although that list would keep you busy for a while.

Think about action and reaction as well.

Gosai
1/27/2016 9:45pm,
I did Judo maybe... a year give or take. Usually 2-3 times a week. Sometimes more (I'd recently found another club that had it's own Judo classes on the off-days from the other one I went to). Currently sitting at 27 years old, would definitely like to compete. Had only managed two competitions so far. The first my division was small enough I got a medal due to a bi. The other one, I was due to pin on both after my efforts at throws failed terribly.

Right now I was hoping to mostly get the technique down again, and then add in the action-reaction stuff and-... oh god. I just realized how terrible this plan sounds.

I'd like to get the mechanics of the throws better and then employ them more in randori, before applying them towards actual competition again. I think that sums up the progress plan I'd like to go through.

BKR
1/29/2016 12:10pm,
I did Judo maybe... a year give or take. Usually 2-3 times a week. Sometimes more (I'd recently found another club that had it's own Judo classes on the off-days from the other one I went to). Currently sitting at 27 years old, would definitely like to compete. Had only managed two competitions so far. The first my division was small enough I got a medal due to a bi. The other one, I was due to pin on both after my efforts at throws failed terribly.

Right now I was hoping to mostly get the technique down again, and then add in the action-reaction stuff and-... oh god. I just realized how terrible this plan sounds.

I'd like to get the mechanics of the throws better and then employ them more in randori, before applying them towards actual competition again. I think that sums up the progress plan I'd like to go through.

So, you did Judo for a year, 2-3 times a week, and you were hoping to "mostly get the technique down "again".

I'm going to be blunt, but, you would be a very rare person to have the technique "down" to get it "again" after that small amount of judo training. Or BJJ, or boxing, or ping-pong for that matter.

The throws you named are OK (the O Guruma you should drop more than likely). However, you probably need to train normally, get into shape, and avoid getting injured in the process.

So, the basics of judo are posture, gripping, and movement. And the combination and application thereof. Same on the ground as well.

Judo relies on an upright posture, upper body control/influence by gripping, and movement to create or take advantage of opportunities to throw. Groundwork, not upright obviously...

So if you are bent over, don't grip optimally (and I don't mean grip fighting), and move like a pregnant yaak, chances are no matter how much you practice O Guruma, you won't be able to make it work.

I prefer my students to actually throw each other a lot, while moving. That's good if you have good tatami (or a crash pad, not optimal, but better than not throwing).

Gosai
1/31/2016 12:47am,
So, you did Judo for a year, 2-3 times a week, and you were hoping to "mostly get the technique down "again".

I'm going to be blunt, but, you would be a very rare person to have the technique "down" to get it "again" after that small amount of judo training. Or BJJ, or boxing, or ping-pong for that matter.

I will admit that that statement was pretty hilariously exaggerated on my end. It was just the only way I could think to describe it at the time. I suppose it would be better to say 'I'd like to develop something more than a limited understanding of any of the techniques'. Wordy, but probably shows my ACTUAL level of development better.


The throws you named are OK (the O Guruma you should drop more than likely). However, you probably need to train normally, get into shape, and avoid getting injured in the process.
Seems like pretty sound advice. I'm starting a workout, actually. I'll stick to drilling less fancy stuff.


So, the basics of judo are posture, gripping, and movement. And the combination and application thereof. Same on the ground as well.

Judo relies on an upright posture, upper body control/influence by gripping, and movement to create or take advantage of opportunities to throw. Groundwork, not upright obviously...

See, that seems like where I should ALSO be focusing. Because I had the false sense that my throws were at least 'okay', but that I happened to be really shitty at grip-fighting and moving myself into a position to GET the throw. The more I think about it, though, the more it seems like I was just all-round shitty and didn't realize it.


So if you are bent over, don't grip optimally (and I don't mean grip fighting), and move like a pregnant yaak, chances are no matter how much you practice O Guruma, you won't be able to make it work.

I prefer my students to actually throw each other a lot, while moving. That's good if you have good tatami (or a crash pad, not optimal, but better than not throwing).

Hmm... well thanks for the bluntness. I get the impression this is the advice I may have actually needed. Second school I mentioned involved more of the movement training and positioning. The other class I've got (and the one I'm currently attending due to travel issues) largely we just... throw each other and then hope we can pull it together in Randori. Not optimum either regarding training but, I'll just have to see about getting my partners to move around a bit more so I can work on getting into positions to actually execute my throws.

Back to doing that weird squat/turn thing for an entry drill I think. It at least sounds like a step in the right direction.

BKR
2/01/2016 12:47am,
I will admit that that statement was pretty hilariously exaggerated on my end. It was just the only way I could think to describe it at the time. I suppose it would be better to say 'I'd like to develop something more than a limited understanding of any of the techniques'. Wordy, but probably shows my ACTUAL level of development better.


Seems like pretty sound advice. I'm starting a workout, actually. I'll stick to drilling less fancy stuff.



See, that seems like where I should ALSO be focusing. Because I had the false sense that my throws were at least 'okay', but that I happened to be really shitty at grip-fighting and moving myself into a position to GET the throw. The more I think about it, though, the more it seems like I was just all-round shitty and didn't realize it.



Hmm... well thanks for the bluntness. I get the impression this is the advice I may have actually needed. Second school I mentioned involved more of the movement training and positioning. The other class I've got (and the one I'm currently attending due to travel issues) largely we just... throw each other and then hope we can pull it together in Randori. Not optimum either regarding training but, I'll just have to see about getting my partners to move around a bit more so I can work on getting into positions to actually execute my throws.

Back to doing that weird squat/turn thing for an entry drill I think. It at least sounds like a step in the right direction.

Throwing each other is good. If you can practice that while moving in different directions, that's even better. If you can practice that along with 1.) grip 2.) move 3.) throw, then even better.

It doesn't matter so much if you have to go slow, or don't do it that well, it's the practice of the process that is important, along with knowing how a certain throw works and how to do it. Although IMO in many cases, too much emphasis is placed on that at first with beginners. Getting bogged down in details that you can't comprehend let along pay attention to is distracting to say the least.

You get better over time, by being consistent in your training, both in content and amount.

Oh, and work on throwing and pinning too. The transition is part of the process.

Not sure what that weird squat/turn thing is. Tai Sabaki is important, but isn't generally weird or unnatural.

The old saw about performing how you practice is true, so true. If you don't practice the process, you won't pull it out of your ass in randori or shiai.

BKR
2/01/2016 12:02pm,
Oh, and who in the heck let's a beginner take up O Guruma as a technique to focus on ? It's like a BJJ white belt getting trained berimbola and worm guard in the first year...

1st two kyo of the gokyo (first 16 throws) works very well,a can keep you busy for a long, long time.

Lanner Hunt
2/01/2016 7:10pm,
Hmm... well thanks for the bluntness. I get the impression this is the advice I may have actually needed. Second school I mentioned involved more of the movement training and positioning. The other class I've got (and the one I'm currently attending due to travel issues) largely we just... throw each other and then hope we can pull it together in Randori.

I have to ask; what sort of syllabus does your current school have? Surely they have a few basic throws they teach to beginners?

I only ask because you mention you were only in for a fairly brief period before a hiatus. Please don't take this the wrong way, as I don't mean to be offensive, but I would highly suggest sticking to the most absolutely beginner-oriented things on your school's syllabus.

See, the thing is, like BKR mentioned, taking a hiatus after only doing it for a year isn't going to leave you with a whole lot. It might even behoove you to try and approach it from the standpoint of having no experience.

You are talking about working on entries and stuff but really, that just comes with time and a super solid grasp of the basics, alongside consistent practice.

Edit:
Your initial post also reminds me heavily of a common judo 'trap'; oftentimes, you see beginners get taught the basics, but then when they do randori, none of those basic things seem to work. It can cause people to quit fairly easily when this happens because they don't really understand that judo is really, really hard, and requires you to suck at and slowly improve your basics before you can grasp advanced stuff.

Be patient. Everyone sucks at first and judo pulls no punches when it comes to letting you know you don't have something down.

Gosai
2/01/2016 10:19pm,
Oh, and who in the heck let's a beginner take up O Guruma as a technique to focus on ? It's like a BJJ white belt getting trained berimbola and worm guard in the first year...

1st two kyo of the gokyo (first 16 throws) works very well,a can keep you busy for a long, long time.

Well, while still more or less a beginner, it was a technique I'd futzed with a bit mostly for my own amusement. I should probably elaborate a bit there: Sometimes at one of my clubs, the instructors would have a lesson where, essentially, we ran through large chunks of of the syllabus more to get a feel for other techniques and see the similarities between them. Or... something to that effect. Either way, O Guruma had just been a technique that felt good and, to my limited understanding, suited my body type well. Also, I may have undersold the amount of training (Off and on with various hiatuses interspersed because of concerns like money, or... lack of vehicle/license). It wasn't one I'd done seriously, except for against one of the more experienced students, who because I telegraph something awful saw it coming a mile away and stopped it before I got anything from it.

But I do see your point. Even if I WAS awesome for my kyu (I wasn't) I have plenty to work on with the basics that I'd ALREADY been supplied with. And it would make more sense to focus on those until I can make them work reliably than look for some fancy 'super secret move' I could turn into my secret weapon.



I have to ask; what sort of syllabus does your current school have? Surely they have a few basic throws they teach to beginners?

I only ask because you mention you were only in for a fairly brief period before a hiatus. Please don't take this the wrong way, as I don't mean to be offensive, but I would highly suggest sticking to the most absolutely beginner-oriented things on your school's syllabus.

Both of the clubs I had gone too had the same basic syllabus. The Kodokan throws. The primary difference being that one bills its program as 'traditional Kodokan' and is less involved in competition (My first competition, I was the only one from that club who went. It was, actually, where I got in touch with students from the other club) while the other is bigger into competition and even sets up Randori more along the competitive rules.
And I'm certainly not offended by the suggestion of sticking with the bare-bones basics. In fact, it's probably the sanest thing I COULD do.


See, the thing is, like BKR mentioned, taking a hiatus after only doing it for a year isn't going to leave you with a whole lot. It might even behoove you to try and approach it from the standpoint of having no experience.

You are talking about working on entries and stuff but really, that just comes with time and a super solid grasp of the basics, alongside consistent practice.

Edit:
Your initial post also reminds me heavily of a common judo 'trap'; oftentimes, you see beginners get taught the basics, but then when they do randori, none of those basic things seem to work. It can cause people to quit fairly easily when this happens because they don't really understand that judo is really, really hard, and requires you to suck at and slowly improve your basics before you can grasp advanced stuff.

Be patient. Everyone sucks at first and judo pulls no punches when it comes to letting you know you don't have something down.

I believe I fell into something related to the trap you're talking about. I couldn't get most of the techniques to work in randori, excepting against those lighter than me (and the occasional lucky footsweep or O Soto) and instead of working on getting a better grasp of the fundamentals, I concluded that 'maybe this technique just doesn't suit me' and tried to find another that DID. I had one instructor encourage me towards the 'Wheel' and other sacrifice throws because, I think, I had a weight advantage in that dojo and so it SEEMED like I was doing them well, when I think I was moreso just flopping like a beached whale and pulling my training partners with me. Again, to go to my first competition again... when attempting these same techniques I'd been drilling in class... all that happened when dealing with people in my own weight class was loss by pinning.

Lanner Hunt
2/01/2016 10:56pm,
I believe I fell into something related to the trap you're talking about. I couldn't get most of the techniques to work in randori, excepting against those lighter than me (and the occasional lucky footsweep or O Soto) and instead of working on getting a better grasp of the fundamentals, I concluded that 'maybe this technique just doesn't suit me' and tried to find another that DID. I had one instructor encourage me towards the 'Wheel' and other sacrifice throws because, I think, I had a weight advantage in that dojo and so it SEEMED like I was doing them well, when I think I was moreso just flopping like a beached whale and pulling my training partners with me. Again, to go to my first competition again... when attempting these same techniques I'd been drilling in class... all that happened when dealing with people in my own weight class was loss by pinning.

You just have to remember that the absolute key to judo is consistency. It seems sort of obvious to say but, you gotta go and you gotta work hard.

And you have to keep your head above water! Don't give up when it gets tough or it feels like you aren't very good. Everyone goes through that at first, and you just have to get over the hump. Stick with it!

Krampus
2/09/2016 2:24pm,
Picking any of the first 16 throws of the Gokyo are usually reasonable choices for beginners.

You could further narrow that list to a top 2-5 throw to focus on with any of the following selection criteria:
1) Simply go in order of how the throws are presented within the Gokyo, which is a surprisingly reasonable choice for all levels of players, or
2) Start with the top 2-5 throws that seem to come most naturally to you, or
3) Start with top 2-5 throws that are used most often by top Judo players with your body type and weight class, or
4) Start with the 2-5 throws that are your Judo teachers best throws that they know really well, or
5) Start with 2-5 throws off any of the several top ten scoring throws in Judo lists etc that work well in combination with each other. This final type of approach usually includes being able to hit Osoto Gari from both sides, and being able to hit a switch side Osoto Gari as the person withdraws one leg to defend the first attack, combined with either a strong seoi nage or uchi mata, and at least one other ashi-waza technique, or
6) Focus on ashi-waza, particularly de ashi barai, kouchi-gari, ouchi-gari, osoto gari, and Sasae, if you want to learn a subtle, timing based, and upright style of Judo, or
7) Focus on the now forbidden free style wrestling in a Gi style of Judo, by focusing on double leg takedowns, single leg take downs, ankle picks, a sacrifice style firemen's carry, and basic hip throws, or
8) Focus on a Sambo style of Judo, using the Georgian Grip Harai Goshi/Osoto Gari/Inside Trip/Thigh Lifts, and the Eastern European Judo style grip Sumi gaeshi, and dumps, or
9) Focus on sacrifice throws if you hate risking being thrown, ie sumi gaeshi, sacrifice style fireman's carry, yoko gake, tani otoshi, and yoko tomonage, or
10) Focus on Greco Roman / Mongolian style body lock throws including kosoto gari, and all kinds of body lock dumps, back arch throws, arm drags arm spins, ippon seoi nage with and without the mongolian finish.
11) Maybe you are a heavy weight, and this is why O guruma was in your original repertoire. In that case, I recommend you read the Great Yamashita's masterclass Judo book and watch Yamashita Judo videos. He used Osoto Gari, Ouchi Gari, Uchi Mata, and sasae to great advantages. We do see some heavy weights hitting O garuma and Ashi garuma type throws, though.
12) Or you could decide to be yet another Judoka who focuses on Seoi Otoshi, which is a throw that many people specialize in at all levels due to it's ease of use.

So many choices, so many flavors of Judo, so many body types and weight classes, and...

Pick an approach that your Judo teachers agree with and can help you with, and go have fun!

BKR
2/09/2016 5:49pm,
Picking any of the first 16 throws of the Gokyo are usually reasonable choices for beginners.

You could further narrow that list to a top 2-5 throw to focus on with any of the following selection criteria:
1) Simply go in order of how the throws are presented within the Gokyo, which is a surprisingly reasonable choice for all levels of players, or
2) Start with the top 2-5 throws that seem to come most naturally to you, or
3) Start with top 2-5 throws that are used most often by top Judo players with your body type and weight class, or
4) Start with the 2-5 throws that are your Judo teachers best throws that they know really well, or
5) Start with 2-5 throws off any of the several top ten scoring throws in Judo lists etc that work well in combination with each other. This final type of approach usually includes being able to hit Osoto Gari from both sides, and being able to hit a switch side Osoto Gari as the person withdraws one leg to defend the first attack, combined with either a strong seoi nage or uchi mata, and at least one other ashi-waza technique, or
6) Focus on ashi-waza, particularly de ashi barai, kouchi-gari, ouchi-gari, osoto gari, and Sasae, if you want to learn a subtle, timing based, and upright style of Judo, or
7) Focus on the now forbidden free style wrestling in a Gi style of Judo, by focusing on double leg takedowns, single leg take downs, ankle picks, a sacrifice style firemen's carry, and basic hip throws, or
8) Focus on a Sambo style of Judo, using the Georgian Grip Harai Goshi/Osoto Gari/Inside Trip/Thigh Lifts, and the Eastern European Judo style grip Sumi gaeshi, and dumps, or
9) Focus on sacrifice throws if you hate risking being thrown, ie sumi gaeshi, sacrifice style fireman's carry, yoko gake, tani otoshi, and yoko tomonage, or
10) Focus on Greco Roman / Mongolian style body lock throws including kosoto gari, and all kinds of body lock dumps, back arch throws, arm drags arm spins, ippon seoi nage with and without the mongolian finish.
11) Maybe you are a heavy weight, and this is why O guruma was in your original repertoire. In that case, I recommend you read the Great Yamashita's masterclass Judo book and watch Yamashita Judo videos. He used Osoto Gari, Ouchi Gari, Uchi Mata, and sasae to great advantages. We do see some heavy weights hitting O garuma and Ashi garuma type throws, though.
12) Or you could decide to be yet another Judoka who focuses on Seoi Otoshi, which is a throw that many people specialize in at all levels due to it's ease of use.

So many choices, so many flavors of Judo, so many body types and weight classes, and...

Pick an approach that your Judo teachers agree with and can help you with, and go have fun!

I think you have to ask what the OPs primary purpose is to learn Judo. That would narrow the choices a bit.
1.) Reasonable, I typically start with De Ashi Barai, Ouchi Gari, O Goshi, and Kouchi Gari. I have falling skill progressions that end up there.
2.) For an average sized person, it's not an issue, but with say, a tall person in a class of short folks, it makes a difference for sure. I've had that happen quite a bit. For sure you have to go with what is the least awkward possible.
3.) Ugh, I don't think so. Pedagogically that's not a good idea.
4.) Ugh, only if they suck as a teacher and you have no choice. I teach my students to do many, many throws better than I ever could, especially in competition.
5.) Really, start with the top 10 list ? I suppose that would be a choice out of the first 16 of the Gokyo, so not so bad, and the principle you are getting at is solid.
6.) Those are decent choices, but not for the reason you give. Upright, timing based Judo IS Judo, in the "classical" sense, although not the only effective one, it's the purest form of physical Judo.
7.) Only if doing BJJ or wrestling, not for modern competition, or even "normal" judo training.
8.) Same thing, if he is interested in competing in "normal" judo competitions. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a snob, but it all depends on what the OP wants to end up doing.
9.) Pedagogically unsound to say the least. Sutemi waza are the most subtle, difficult throws to do well.
10.) See 7.)
11.) O Guruma, really ? For a beginner, heavyweight tor otherwise ? I agree, you see it in high level comps, but it's the end of a long process, not the beginning...
12.) Easy to use, maybe, because it's so easy to do poorly and still throw unsuspecting noobs. Poor overall pedagogical choice as well.

So, to be clear, I'm not a one size fit's all kind of judo teacher. I do think that the "basic" "style" of Judo is pretty much a general, all purpose way to learn grappling. I base that on the fact that it is based on the "upright" style, i.e., shizenhontai, AKA fundamental natural posture. Given an equally sized uke, different body shapes and sizes can be accommodated when learning basics.

The one in which the human body functions most efficiently.

Judo groundwork has it's issues, but is sound as well, although of course restricted in submissions to elbow and chokes, more or less. Of course, there is not any emphasis on avoiding getting punched in the face as a fundamental, LOL !

In any case, starting with a general form and moving to more specific forms (for example, to sutemi, or more wrestling oriented forms of gi-grappling/judo) makes sense to me.

Krampus
2/09/2016 6:55pm,
I think you have to ask what the OPs primary purpose is to learn Judo. That would narrow the choices a bit.
1.) Reasonable, I typically start with De Ashi Barai, Ouchi Gari, O Goshi, and Kouchi Gari. I have falling skill progressions that end up there.
2.) For an average sized person, it's not an issue, but with say, a tall person in a class of short folks, it makes a difference for sure. I've had that happen quite a bit. For sure you have to go with what is the least awkward possible.
3.) Ugh, I don't think so. Pedagogically that's not a good idea.
4.) Ugh, only if they suck as a teacher and you have no choice. I teach my students to do many, many throws better than I ever could, especially in competition.
5.) Really, start with the top 10 list ? I suppose that would be a choice out of the first 16 of the Gokyo, so not so bad, and the principle you are getting at is solid.
6.) Those are decent choices, but not for the reason you give. Upright, timing based Judo IS Judo, in the "classical" sense, although not the only effective one, it's the purest form of physical Judo.
7.) Only if doing BJJ or wrestling, not for modern competition, or even "normal" judo training.
8.) Same thing, if he is interested in competing in "normal" judo competitions. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a snob, but it all depends on what the OP wants to end up doing.
9.) Pedagogically unsound to say the least. Sutemi waza are the most subtle, difficult throws to do well.
10.) See 7.)
11.) O Guruma, really ? For a beginner, heavyweight tor otherwise ? I agree, you see it in high level comps, but it's the end of a long process, not the beginning...
12.) Easy to use, maybe, because it's so easy to do poorly and still throw unsuspecting noobs. Poor overall pedagogical choice as well.

So, to be clear, I'm not a one size fit's all kind of judo teacher. I do think that the "basic" "style" of Judo is pretty much a general, all purpose way to learn grappling. I base that on the fact that it is based on the "upright" style, i.e., shizenhontai, AKA fundamental natural posture. Given an equally sized uke, different body shapes and sizes can be accommodated when learning basics.

The one in which the human body functions most efficiently.

Judo groundwork has it's issues, but is sound as well, although of course restricted in submissions to elbow and chokes, more or less. Of course, there is not any emphasis on avoiding getting punched in the face as a fundamental, LOL !

In any case, starting with a general form and moving to more specific forms (for example, to sutemi, or more wrestling oriented forms of gi-grappling/judo) makes sense to me.

I don't disagree with your assessments regarding the various selection criteria, but I have seen all of them chosen.

I myself basically had to relearn Judo from a couple different points of view.
First, as a converted wrestler in my early 20's, who only compared about competition.
Then as someone who was co-training Judo and BJJ,
Then as someone who got to train Judo in Brazil, France, and Japan (Judo is GOOD!).
Then as a cancer patient with artificial hips, bad knees, and now, middle aged.
And finally, mentally as someone who now can learn without worrying about immediate results,
and who realizes that there are often several valid ways to do something.

As my circle of training partners changed,
And my competition focus changed,
And then when my body changed (hip replacements, cancer, getting older etc).
And finally, mentally when I was able to let go, and just learn without worrying about immediate results for the next competition,
My point of view about the depth of Judo has continued to change.

I think the value of cycling through the Gokyo is timeless, and valuable for all expertise levels.

But, I am glad there are different approaches to Judo across the world.
Russian, European, Japanese Classical, Brazilian.
I'd love to go to Moscow at some point, and get to learn more about the Sambo point of view, too.
But, we'll see. It might stay on the bucket list, unexecuted.

Borbotto
2/10/2016 5:36am,
I think you have to ask what the OPs primary purpose is to learn Judo. That would narrow the choices a bit.
1.) Reasonable, I typically start with De Ashi Barai, Ouchi Gari, O Goshi, and Kouchi Gari. I have falling skill progressions that end up there.
2.) For an average sized person, it's not an issue, but with say, a tall person in a class of short folks, it makes a difference for sure. I've had that happen quite a bit. For sure you have to go with what is the least awkward possible.
3.) Ugh, I don't think so. Pedagogically that's not a good idea.
4.) Ugh, only if they suck as a teacher and you have no choice. I teach my students to do many, many throws better than I ever could, especially in competition.
5.) Really, start with the top 10 list ? I suppose that would be a choice out of the first 16 of the Gokyo, so not so bad, and the principle you are getting at is solid.
6.) Those are decent choices, but not for the reason you give. Upright, timing based Judo IS Judo, in the "classical" sense, although not the only effective one, it's the purest form of physical Judo.
7.) Only if doing BJJ or wrestling, not for modern competition, or even "normal" judo training.
8.) Same thing, if he is interested in competing in "normal" judo competitions. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a snob, but it all depends on what the OP wants to end up doing.
9.) Pedagogically unsound to say the least. Sutemi waza are the most subtle, difficult throws to do well.
10.) See 7.)
11.) O Guruma, really ? For a beginner, heavyweight tor otherwise ? I agree, you see it in high level comps, but it's the end of a long process, not the beginning...
12.) Easy to use, maybe, because it's so easy to do poorly and still throw unsuspecting noobs. Poor overall pedagogical choice as well.

So, to be clear, I'm not a one size fit's all kind of judo teacher. I do think that the "basic" "style" of Judo is pretty much a general, all purpose way to learn grappling. I base that on the fact that it is based on the "upright" style, i.e., shizenhontai, AKA fundamental natural posture. Given an equally sized uke, different body shapes and sizes can be accommodated when learning basics.

The one in which the human body functions most efficiently.

Judo groundwork has it's issues, but is sound as well, although of course restricted in submissions to elbow and chokes, more or less. Of course, there is not any emphasis on avoiding getting punched in the face as a fundamental, LOL !

In any case, starting with a general form and moving to more specific forms (for example, to sutemi, or more wrestling oriented forms of gi-grappling/judo) makes sense to me.


There's something I'd like to ask. First of all, do you teach multiple classes for different levels of players? Otherwise, how do you go about setting up a progression? What I mean is my club only has one class for adults, where all levels practice together. So when someone new comes, the focus of the first part of training will almost always be ukemi and I guess practicing that is always good for everyone, but other than that, we practice a wide array of different techniques (I don't mean multiple techniques on the same lessons). Also, most people come once or twice, or maybe for a short time, and then quit: how do you set up something like a progression for beginners when you don't know how long they're gonna train and the people that come regularly range from beginner to intermediate to expert? I'm guessing it depends on the type and size of the school, we are a small club, so there's that. But I've always wondered. Thank you for your time, by the way; I always read your posts with religious attention.

BKR
2/10/2016 3:07pm,
There's something I'd like to ask. First of all, do you teach multiple classes for different levels of players? Otherwise, how do you go about setting up a progression? What I mean is my club only has one class for adults, where all levels practice together. So when someone new comes, the focus of the first part of training will almost always be ukemi and I guess practicing that is always good for everyone, but other than that, we practice a wide array of different techniques (I don't mean multiple techniques on the same lessons). Also, most people come once or twice, or maybe for a short time, and then quit: how do you set up something like a progression for beginners when you don't know how long they're gonna train and the people that come regularly range from beginner to intermediate to expert? I'm guessing it depends on the type and size of the school, we are a small club, so there's that. But I've always wondered. Thank you for your time, by the way; I always read your posts with religious attention.

Well, that's a good question!

Leaving kids out, although the same thing can happen in a kids class...

We had a beginners adult class for a while, but people dropped out, so we stopped it. Not much demand for it in a rural low-population area.

That leaves the senior adult class, which is all teen-aged competitors. We have two instructors, so if a new adult wants to try Judo, myself or the other instructor work with the new person personally.

If it's me there alone, I give instruction to the kids, and help out the new person best I can. It's not an ideal situation, for sure, because I have to watch the teenagers as well.

The progression for a beginner will depend on how old they are, what kind of shape they are in, etc. Usually with personal instruction a reasonably coordinated adult or young teenager will be throwing a more experienced person by the end of class. I try to have them do some Judo and feels successful rather than just working on ukemi the whole time. It's pretty easy to do , really. Otherwise, it's boring.

There is not much instant gratification in Judo, but progress is easier to make than most would believe.

judoka01
3/22/2016 10:00pm,
Don't even think about combos. It always got me away from thinking about what I was supposed to think about.