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Marney
12/23/2015 9:40am,
Wing Chun -- It's a very famous art, especially around here for its practitioners' tendencies to get their asses kicked by anyone with a few months of boxing.

Without resorting to petty personal insults, bickering, and out-of-context Shawn Obasi references, I'd like to see an intelligent, rational discussion on where this system is ineffective. In what areas is the art flawed, and what should be done about it?

Be specific. "Everything" doesn't count as a reply -- if everything is what's wrong with the system, list everything -- or at least the top ten or so problems that you see.

ermghoti
12/23/2015 10:53am,
The training methods generally adopted are useless, eschewing a progression towards live sparring in favor of drills. All other flaws stem from this failing, leading to an inability to deal with movement, low kicks, takedowns, ground fighting, a reliance on unrealistic parries and traps, etc, and often a false belief that such skills are actually present in the art, due to the lack of live training and the hero worship. If not for that, it would basically be a close relative of boxing, which works great.

It is Fake
12/23/2015 11:05am,
We have entire threads with minimal insults.

Kovacs
12/23/2015 11:11am,
Wing Chun -- It's a very famous art, especially around here for its practitioners' tendencies to get their asses kicked by anyone with a few months of boxing.

Without resorting to petty personal insults, bickering, and out-of-context Shawn Obasi references, I'd like to see an intelligent, rational discussion on where this system is ineffective. In what areas is the art flawed, and what should be done about it?

Be specific. "Everything" doesn't count as a reply -- if everything is what's wrong with the system, list everything -- or at least the top ten or so problems that you see.

It's a waste of time, nothing's changed; there's no argument or descussion to be had. Use the search engine and read old threads becouse people may as well copy and paste them to answer you.

Raycetpfl
12/23/2015 11:16am,
The problem with wing chump is they hope nothing happens. They don't want to be hit or battered or bruised.
Where as many wrestlers,Judoka, Boxers, Kyokushin karateka, Thai Boxers and Jiujitserios wish a Muthafucka would.

The practioners are in fact cowards. They also have delevoped a style that punches with the power of a ten year old girl with palsy.
:-p

Marney
12/23/2015 11:22am,
The problem with wing chump is they hope nothing happens. They don't want to be hit or battered or bruised.
Where as many wrestlers,Judoka, Boxers, Kyokushin karateka, Thai Boxers and Jiujitserios wish a Muthafucka would.

The practioners are in fact cowards. They also have delevoped a style that punches with the power of a ten year old girl with palsy.

You didn't answer the question.

It is Fake
12/23/2015 11:28am,
Sure he did, do you really need it translated?

Lanner Hunt
12/23/2015 4:18pm,
At risk of stating the obvious, as it's been mentioned before, there are plenty of threads that break it down rationally. Those would be a good place to start.

But, to answer your question as succinctly as possible:

-An abundance of theorycrafting; Wing Chun seems to have far more YouTube videos dedicated to hard theory than any other art. However, while intelligent discourse has benefits, this leads to the next issue.

-A lack of pressure testing; Chunners rarely spar. Raaaarely. It is important to be able to take the things you've learned in class and pressure test them against a combative and non-compliant opponent. Boxing does it, judo does it, etc. But Wing Chun does not. Probably because...

-When put under pressure, Wing Chun crumples like paper. Wing Chun has a long a storied history of entering early MMA matches and getting handily trounced. Despite all of the combat theories and how hard of a sell Wing Chun presents, there is a staggering amount of hard evidence against it being even remotely effective. And this is likely because...

-The physics are horsesh*t. Look at any wing chun book or video and you'll see a lot of discourse on the centerline. On chain punches. On the pigeon toed stance.

...As far as physics are concerned, none of these things hold water. There are a variety of ways to punch that afford the puncher a more effective way to deliver speed and power. There are numerous ways to stand that offer far greater balance and stability.


Now, I'm sure there are far more ways to explain the inefficiencies of Wing Chun, but those are the first things that come to my mind.

Holy Moment
12/23/2015 6:10pm,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=979JwlCUBdI

^ Two of the best known Wing Chun practitioners in the world.

Raycetpfl
12/23/2015 6:30pm,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=979JwlCUBdI

^ Two of the best known Wing Chun practitioners in the world.

That's fantastic.

Holy Moment
12/23/2015 6:52pm,
That's fantastic.

Take note of Boztepe's position once he has Cheung on the floor.

That's not side-mount. That's Street-mount.

Johnny Rhodes used it to beat Fred Ettish. The trick is to kneel next to their body rather than put any top pressure on them. When they try to spaz their way out, push them back with just your arms and let loose with dingus-style punches so they cover up.

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/80675093/

Holy Moment
12/23/2015 8:08pm,
Dan Severn Bilks a Cab Driver

Veteran hack driver Henry Krinkle pulls up to his customer's destination and lets him get off on the side of the road.

Henry Krinkle: 154 Hopper. I'm going to have to charge you extra because of all those back-rubs you gave me on the freeway.

Dan Severn: No problem.

The mustachioed sodomite fumbles around in the pockets of his duster, grunting and heaving as he strains to scrap together every last cent he can find. Krinkle waits impatiently as the meter on his dashboard flashes the price of Severn's fare.

Dan Severn: I hope this will cover it.

The haggard cabbie idly holds out his palm to catch his profit only for Severn to abruptly flip him the bird as soon as he pulls his hand out of his coat. Krinkle is utterly confounded as Severn saunters off down the road, aghast that a grown adult would welsh on him like some dumbass teenager. After a moment's adrenaline dump, he climbs out of his vehicle and rushes towards his fare.

Henry Krinkle: Yo, man, what the ****!

Severn spins around.

Dan Severn: Oh, I'm sorry. I forgot to tip.

The beefy ex-UFC champion quickly reaches into his duster again and pulls out another middle finger for Krinkle. At this sight, the army-jacket clad chauffeur just loses it and lunges at the goliath wrestler like a wildcat busting out of a barbed-wire pen. Krinkle doesn't care how big this Michigan-sounding goon is, NOBODY fucks around with his livelihood.

The crazed cabbie collides with his delinquent fare, and for but a brief moment his body becomes one with the mustachioed muscleman's. After less than a nanosecond's struggle, however, the ground beneath Krinkle's feet suddenly vanishes and he finds his leathery face being licked violently by the wind. There's no time to ponder what these sensations mean before bomb-bursts of wood begin erupting around the stunned hack's spinning head. After a moment of darkness, Krinkle finds himself in a dazed heap in the middle of a mound of crushed oranges. Assessing his situation through bleary eyes, the realization of what happened hits him all too quickly: He had been suplexed into a fruit stand.

Black People Across the Street: OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

With trembling legs, Krinkle slowly regains his footing amid the belligerent yelps of the Korean street vendors scrambling to gather their scattered merchandise. His comedically masculine antagonist leers down at him with a sinister smile, his snot-caked mustache stamped above his lips like a mark of the Devil. Despite being in so much pain that he can't even muster a thought, Krinkle presses his attack again through some sheer unconscious force of will. Picking up a piece of jagged table leg, he dives at Severn like a caveman trying to thrust a spear through the hide of a wooly mammoth.

Severn doesn't betray even a flinch as the wounded cabbie attempts to gore him with his wooden stake. The very precise instant Krinkle gets in range to attack he's back up in the air again. The impromptu pike flies from his grasp mere seconds before he hits the concrete with a thud, the excruciating pain he's already in compounded a dozen times over. Twin streams of red, both only slightly wider than a needle, dribble out from his ears and begin staining the graying hair near the back of his head.

Black People Across the Street: OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

Krinkle doesn't want to get up. The thoughts of his lost fare seem miles away, now. All he wants to do is crawl into his hack and go back home to drown his sorrows in corn flakes and peach brandy. The apparently superhumanly strong psychopath who slammed him doesn't seem to be pressing the attack, so the battered cabbie takes that as a sign that he's been taken pity on and allowed to leave. Turning over to his stomach, he begins his long ascent back to yellow salvation... Only to find his rear end being caressed by a bizarre, alien sensation. Like a breeze blowing over the back of his thighs.

Black People Across the Street: OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! NIGGA RIPPED HIS PANTS!!!

Krinkle's ass is out. "Fuckin' perfect," he thinks. "The fruit stand must've shredded my chinos when I went through." Abject humiliation can now be counted among the numerous other painful sensations he has to endure right now. The sudden shock of it all is so potent that it stops him dead in his tracks and implores him to look around and see just how many people are witnessing his degradation. There are considerably more than he had realized: About twelve black dudes cackling at him from across the street, numerous produce vendors (Who have stopped trying to clean up their tables in order to watch all the hullabaloo), and several busloads of giggling super-models who just happened to be driving through at that particular moment. "Fuckin' perfect," he thinks again.

One eerie, malevolent face stands out from the rest, however: That of the beefy Michigan man who had caused him this agony. With unblinking, dilated eyes, he stares at Krinkle's buttocks like a vampire gazing upon bloodshed. The stunned cabbie is unsure of what to make of that when a strange voice begins echoing in his mind... A voice from the most primal recesses of his being. "Run! RUN!!!" it tells him. Krinkle doesn't have time to move, however. The attack comes faster than a rattlesnake's strike, only with much less warning.

Black People Across the Street: OHHHHHHHH- AH! AHHHHHHHHHH!

Everybody in the surrounding area scatters as Severn leaps atop Krinkle and inserts his formidable penis into the beaten cabbie's rectum. Krinkle can't even scream; like somebody being stabbed in the back, his breath is drawn out from him. Severn cackles like an erkling as he rhythmically pulls out and reinserts his phallus in order to stimulate the erogenous zones along its tip and shaft. Krinkle quietly weeps into his sleeves as he feels his anus growing wider and wider with each thrust.

Henry Krinkle: Please... Stop... I have to take a ****!

Dan Severn: No you don't. That's how it's SUPPOSED to feel!

Henry Krinkle: *Sob*

God knows how much time passes. Hours? Days? Eventually...

Dan Severn: UGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

The ejaculatory period seems to last almost as long as the build-up. After he's pumped about ten liters of cream cheese into Krinkle's liver (He had poked a few ulcers in his intestines during the act), Severn simply stands up and wipes the dirt off his knees. Casually walking off into the sunset, he leaves the abused hack on the ground to stew like a used-up whore, the anus of whom will never possess the same potency as it once did.

Fin.

Sam Losco
12/23/2015 8:19pm,
I dont claim to know wing chunt/tsun very well, but I have seen quite much of it and even tried it myself
and IMHO the main problem is that itīs simply too theoretical.. They seem to have obsession with some pseudo-scientific theories about "centerline"
Then again I have couple of times seen a wing chun/tsun trainer actually use smth akin to what they train in sparring against kickboxing/muay thai/whatever guys
And in both of these occasions the wing guy was someone who had threw this centerline stuff to trash bin and incorporated some western boxing and or muay thai tehcniques into wing whatthefuckever

I dont think that the MA is excactly as bad as itīs reputation but then again, mostly it seems to be so

Holy Moment
12/23/2015 10:23pm,
UGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH-

mike321
12/24/2015 12:25am,
Wing Chun -- It's a very famous art, especially around here for its practitioners' tendencies to get their asses kicked by anyone with a few months of boxing.

Without resorting to petty personal insults, bickering, and out-of-context Shawn Obasi references, I'd like to see an intelligent, rational discussion on where this system is ineffective. In what areas is the art flawed, and what should be done about it?

Be specific. "Everything" doesn't count as a reply -- if everything is what's wrong with the system, list everything -- or at least the top ten or so problems that you see.
Marney,
Your question regarding the flaws of wing chun is based on a flawed premise: the burden of proof is on the martial art. Boxing has proven that hitting with your fists using boxing training will improve your fighting vs not having the boxing training. This basic demonstration of effectiveness vs no training is a bare minimum. The next level of evidence is to show effectiveness against other styles of fighting. To search for flaws in a system that has not been demonstrated effective gives the art a level of respect that it does not deserve. Note: i have not said anything specific to wing chun. It applies to all arts.

gold_ax666
12/24/2015 4:00am,
I dont claim to know wing chunt/tsun very well, but I have seen quite much of it and even tried it myself
and IMHO the main problem is that itīs simply too theoretical.. They seem to have obsession with some pseudo-scientific theories about "centerline"
Then again I have couple of times seen a wing chun/tsun trainer actually use smth akin to what they train in sparring against kickboxing/muay thai/whatever guys
And in both of these occasions the wing guy was someone who had threw this centerline stuff to trash bin and incorporated some western boxing and or muay thai tehcniques into wing whatthefuckever

I dont think that the MA is excactly as bad as itīs reputation but then again, mostly it seems to be so

You could have ended your post after the first 5 words.