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1point2
10/20/2015 3:52am,
White belts do get shown the straight ankle lock setup, finish, and defense/escape, and in drilling etc they'll put it on, if they're competing they'll train with it (in rolling) - but we'll also advise going for other submissions over ankle locks for a new white belt.

Our classes are mixed after the first 3 months e.g. intro to BJJ then straight to the open classes (all belt levels and experience) so I think it's also a way just to limit those still on the spazzy-mode to avoid it for a little while especially the drop from standing entry > finish. I think it aids as well to stop the new Blues from targetting the poor newb white belt legs over and over rather than working on the more valuable stuff of passing, retaining, position control etc. So I don't disagree with you or your points either!

I personally love lower body submissions and have since I saw them as a white belt, I'd practice them, and roll with them (with specific people or higher belts) - but rolling with them generally was more a focus at high white as I was approaching my Blue as I wanted to get better earlier at them (so I'd be better now, haha). And I think they are important for White Belts to know and be rolling with well, but it's also not my gym or my insurance, and I'd guess over 15 years of running the gym this is a good mid-point for white belt engagement, readiness, and lowered injury count (to rationalise)?

I suppose that's fair.


As to the point on "Why are they seen or are they more dangerous" I don't think there's anything that makes them inherently more dangerous outside of the lowered bio-feedback you get— because, in my opinion, I do think they take more bodily awareness to be safe - rotational leg attacks as a prime example are hard to "feel" due to the lack of pain, you're feeling the pressure in the joint and torque of the limb itself that's something that's super difficult to keep in mind as a white belt when you've not had someone lie their weight on you and try and twist your neck off (which feels super real and has direct pain feedback, for example).

The upper-body examples I keep thinking of are the Kimura and omoplata. In my experience, submissions like a rear naked choke, guillotine, straight armbar, or Americana are all pretty painful before there's injury or unconsciousness. But I see a lot of noobs with their wrist way up behind their back in a Kimura or omoplata, and you can see they're thinking, "Hmm. This is uncomfortable but it's not painful. Maybe I can power or twist my way out of it." I'm suuuuuuper slow-motion with those two submissions on new people, because they tend to flail (sometimes the wrong direction) and need to very sloooooooowly be shown that it is a place where they can get hurt. I feel like this is very similar to the straight ankle lock.

But maybe I'm wrong! After all, the straight ankle lock is probably the legal-for-me submission that I'm the worst at. By far.

BKR
10/20/2015 1:13pm,
Ude Garami is nasty, period, and the easiest arm-lock to rip a guy's elbow and shoulder, up to and including a spiral fracture of the humerus. It takes a lot of control. Straight type armbars are still dangerous, obviously, but not IME a bad as the coiled/twisted ones.

In BJJ, noobs learn armbars and chokes right off the bat. Chokes, not such a big deal, although the potential for neck cranks is there.

I like the Judo way, learning positions and control first, getting to roll/randori that way helps to teach control and get people used to it without the added danger of submissions. The spazzes can get sorted out, redirected, etc. Then chokes, then armbars, then, if they were legal, lower body. It's progressive training from a technical and safety point of view.

Of course, in BJJ, the sub is king, even though "position before submission" is the mantra.

Either way can be done progressively and safely, of course, with proper coaching and attention.

Raycetpfl
10/20/2015 2:18pm,
Of course, in BJJ, the sub is king, even though "position before submission" is the mantra.

Too many schools forget to teach to that you can beat the tar out of people from mount ,back and crusafix

plasma
10/20/2015 2:42pm,
I don't mean to attack you, and I've seen this in multiple gyms I've trained at, but can we just reflect on how insane this is? The straight ankle lock is legal at white belt. It is as legal and as dangerously prone to injury due to misapplication or failure-to-tap as a Kimura. It's crazy that so many gyms play catch-and-release with this submission (even if only with the lower belts). Their opponent in competition can crank on it! It's a fundamental submission in BJJ! White belts need to know how to recognize this submission, how to tap to it, how to attack and defend it, just as much as a straight armbar. But it rarely gets that minimum of respect. I've been taught the straight armbar at least fifty times, the Kimura in detail at least twenty, and the straight ankle lock maybe once (except for the times I explicitly asked during open mats).

The attitude I've seen in the BJJ community towards lower body submissions is completely bonkers and I'm glad it's being changed by the recent rash of leglock specialists. Maybe it's different at other gyms. I'm just flabbergasted to keep hearing that a white-belt-legal submission is treated like plutonium.

Personally, I love that mentality. I had far more success at competition as white and blue than I really had the skill level to, based on the sole fact I could finish a Straight Ankle Lock and was trained to finish them from white belt.

BKR
10/20/2015 3:31pm,
I mean, there's a similar situation with takedowns. BJJ schools avoid them because there's a perception that standing practice is injury-prone, which produces more BJJ players who are bad at breakfalling and throws, which makes standing practice more dangerous. Yet BJJ matches start from standing at all belt levels, which makes the problem unavoidable. The popular solution of not often practicing takedowns in sparring is just sweeping the issue under the rug.

I think there may be something else going on with the lack of takedown instruction in BJJ other than "injury prone". Scoring structure in the sports side...

Sport BJJ seems to be dominating the scene. You get two points for a takedown, or you can pull guard...unlike, say Judo, where you know you can lose in an instant from standing, or get more points for a lesser quality throw (I'm thinking waza ari more than yuko). So why would BJJ guys bother to spend even 50% of their time on takedowns ?

Same goes for judoka, the competition rules/scoring interpretation of progress on the ground makes it a lot harder to to score on the ground. It's easier to be defensive via turtling or pancaking to stall out than it is to be offensive, other than opportunistic pins and subs, given the paucity of time given in the ground (demand for progress).

I LIKE ne waza, but if I spend even 50/50 on it my students are going to lose standing up (this varies with experience...the more experienced can and do start to spend more time on ne waza, and like it). But even then, it's pretty specialized, lots of dealing with turtle and transitions from throwing. And that's driven by the rules and interpretations (IJF) that we compete under, pure and simple.

And standing practice is more injury prone, learning ukemi and control by tori takes time, time better spent on pure ground work. Of course, if you focus on "wrestling style" stuff like doubles and singles, injury rates should be lower.

I'd hate to do hard falling of any sort on the mats at my current BJJ academy. No thanks, unless I'm the one doing the throwing... safe and comfortable tatami are expensive, sub-flooring systems even more so.

BKR
10/20/2015 3:35pm,
Too many schools forget to teach to that you can beat the tar out of people from mount ,back and crucifix

Yeah, if you keep self defense/fighting in mind that makes sense. If sport is the primary purpose, I guess it's easy to lose sight of more practical matters. Personally, I want anybody I'm fighting to be face down on the ground ASAP, with me on top.

But for example, in Judo, that's not considered osaekomi (pin) for scoring purposes in competition. In fact, it's illegal in competition to throw somebody face down, and for good reason, it's dangerous as hell for the guy getting thrown (uke).

So the rules are driving the techniques and methods used. And saf(er) sport does not necessarily mean better self defense/fighting.

It's all a compromise, one way or another.

Raycetpfl
10/20/2015 3:42pm,
I think there may be something else going on with the lack of takedown instruction in BJJ other than "injury prone". Scoring structure in the sports side...

Sport BJJ seems to be dominating the scene. You get two points for a takedown, or you can pull guard...unlike, say Judo, where you know you can lose in an instant from standing, or get more points for a lesser quality throw (I'm thinking waza ari more than yuko). So why would BJJ guys bother to spend even 50% of their time on takedowns ?

Same goes for judoka, the competition rules/scoring interpretation of progress on the ground makes it a lot harder to to score on the ground. It's easier to be defensive via turtling or pancaking to stall out than it is to be offensive, other than opportunistic pins and subs, given the paucity of time given in the ground (demand for progress).

I LIKE ne waza, but if I spend even 50/50 on it my students are going to lose standing up (this varies with experience...the more experienced can and do start to spend more time on ne waza, and like it). But even then, it's pretty specialized, lots of dealing with turtle and transitions from throwing. And that's driven by the rules and interpretations (IJF) that we compete under, pure and simple.

And standing practice is more injury prone, learning ukemi and control by tori takes time, time better spent on pure ground work. Of course, if you focus on "wrestling style" stuff like doubles and singles, injury rates should be lower.

I'd hate to do hard falling of any sort on the mats at my current BJJ academy. No thanks, unless I'm the one doing the throwing... safe and comfortable tatami are expensive, sub-flooring systems even more so.

Rules determine style.

BKR
10/20/2015 3:54pm,
Rules determine style.

Well, yeah, to some degree. I'd prefer to say influence, but I get what you mean for sure.

goodlun
10/20/2015 7:22pm,
Rules determine style.

That is why training in a system that competes in different rule styles is a good idea.

BJJ as a vehicle can be used for a number of different rule sets including amateur MMA.

One of the things about the "street" that often gets looked over is their ARE rules.
Those rules are determined by the situation.
A physical altercation you get into at say the office holiday party cause your coworker had a few too many drinks is very different then getting jumped in an ally way. (no duh)
Having a mindset that allows you to adjust your game plan based on the situation is very important.

Raycetpfl
10/21/2015 10:48pm,
That is why training in a system that competes in different rule styles is a good idea.

BJJ as a vehicle can be used for a number of different rule sets including amateur MMA.

One of the things about the "street" that often gets looked over is their ARE rules.
Those rules are determined by the situation.
A physical altercation you get into at say the office holiday party cause your coworker had a few too many drinks is very different then getting jumped in an ally way. (no duh)
Having a mindset that allows you to adjust your game plan based on the situation is very important.

Unless it's Steve from accounting. I fuckin' hate that guy. I am giving him the choke out from back mount and then the street scrub with the face. :-p

goodlun
10/22/2015 8:07pm,
Unless it's Steve from accounting. I fuckin' hate that guy. I am giving him the choke out from back mount and then the street scrub with the face. :-p

Actually I think a choke out is by far the BEST way to deal with a drunk coworker, the street scrub on the other hand might be a bit too much lol.

BKR
10/23/2015 11:13am,
Actually I think a choke out is by far the BEST way to deal with a drunk coworker, the street scrub on the other hand might be a bit too much lol.

Depending on state code, seriously, deadly or potentially force against a drunk coworker ?

You go girl...

Permalost
10/23/2015 11:35am,
Drunk coworker gets the duck under to Full Nelson of Shame.

WFMurphyPhD
2/09/2016 7:59pm,
Hybrid.
Many of my black, brown, and purple students prefer IBJJF when in the Gi.
I try to corrupt them the best I can though.
Many of them have no or little interest in the striking while grappling.
Which I find to be a bummer, but the sports jiu-jitsu is very big now.
I try not to interfere too much with the authority of the other black belts,
other than coaching them individually after we grapple to encourage them to keep improving,
and to encourage everybody to question models, rulesets, anything I say, and marketing nonsense associated with what we do.

Kintanon
2/10/2016 1:32pm,
When rolling with our MMA guys I use MMA grappling rules in no-gi, blackbelt IBJJF rules in the gi.

When rolling with other folks I just use IBJJF rules unless we agree to throw in leglocks and reaping ahead of time.

Naszir
5/03/2016 1:14am,
With us, it depends on what we have coming up. In BJJ class we roll with belt level restrictions on certain attacks. If we have a judo tournament coming up, IJF current rules, if it's SAMBO we play with FIAS rules. As has been said before, no one is giving penalties but if we see something happening that shouldn't we let the player know.