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Archangel*6
5/13/2004 6:19am,
I was looking up information on Stephen K. Hayes (slow morning and all the Bujinkan threads made me curious), and came across this article...it is supposedly a response from him to an individual who was beaten by a BJJ practitioner.

http://www.skhquest.com/articles/MyOpponentWasTooGood.aspx

While his response is not incorrect, I just felt it was lacking in depth...like there is something that he is wanting to say, but cannot or will not (like "and one way to deal with this would be to..." or "Yep. You are pretty much going to be eating mat or dirt if a BJJ practitioner wants to take you down.").

Not really bullshido as he is not making any outlandish claims, but it just struck me as odd...I'm not going to be nutriding BJJ here, but it does make me wonder, I keep seeing several examples of BJJ vs. so and so, and the BJJ guys keep winning. Are there any examples out there of practitioners of any other style doing a good job of staying off the ground?

I would love to see some footage of fighters who are really skilled & trained to fight (like Kyokushin for example), or any other style out there, to see how they deal with taking on a ground fighter and how well they fare. I think the style vs. style vids with the BJJ vs. whomever are not a fair picture...I think that the non BJJ guys in the vids would most likely get their butts handed to them by other skilled fighters - MT, Kyokushin, Judo...). Any examples folks can recommend, or comments? For me it is a question of technique and ability...and I would love to see some good examples of it

MrMcFu
5/13/2004 6:34am,
Sprawl. Sprawl. Sprawl. Shammrock versus Fujita Pride X.

Anti-grapple = T3h Grapple

The_Dude73
5/13/2004 6:49am,
Chuck Liddel does a pretty good job, but he also trains in BJJ and was a wrestler.

People with absolutely no experience with wrestling or some form of grappling are easy to take down. They just don't know what to do.

The only way I can see of beating that is getting lucky and connecting a solid blow on a sloppy shoot. I saw an amatuer MMA fight end that way one time. A guy did a sloppy shoot in, the other guy connected a solid uppercut, and it was lights out.

chaosexmachina
5/13/2004 6:51am,
Yes, we all know that sprawling is the best defence for leg takedowns... But what about defending a takedown from the clinch?

MrMcFu
5/13/2004 6:56am,
Practice the clinch. Unless someone just picks you right up, you can usually sag down and do a sort of modified sprawl depending on the clinch position. Other then that, just practice moving around.

The clinch is just another form of grappling.

The_Dude73
5/13/2004 6:56am,
Originally posted by chaosexmachina
Yes, we all know that sprawling is the best defence for leg takedowns... But what about defending a takedown from the clinch?

Practice your pummeling so you can keep a good dominant hand position, and try to control what greco-roman wrestling calls the danger zone (hard to show without a picture but it's kind of the area between the combatants feet).

SLJ
5/13/2004 6:58am,
That's the most imcomplete answer I've ever seen, and he stretched it out over about half a page. Here I guess I'll have to help him out a bit.


Dear Stephen K. Hayes,

Learn to grapple.


"I think the style vs. style vids with the BJJ vs. whomever are not a fair picture"

It's not a co-incidence.

Gezere
5/13/2004 7:01am,
But what about defending a takedown from the clinch?

JUDO! :D

Dude,

I also seen guys stopped by knee shots as well. But I keep warning pple not to rely soley on this because it hard to land and to realy do it successfully you have to know how a wrestler/grappler works.




I keep seeing several examples of BJJ vs. so and so, and the BJJ guys keep winning.

That really has to do with A LOT of propaganda. Pple nutride and will only present the best side of their case. Others haven't been as successful at doing this like the BJJ crowd. Why? Because the got alot of backing for what they do. While others well.....

MrMcFu
5/13/2004 7:02am,
**** how could I forget pummelling drills!!!! Dude has T3h correct.

The_Dude73
5/13/2004 7:06am,
Originally posted by Asia
JUDO! :D

Dude,

I also seen guys stopped by knee shots as well. But I keep warning pple not to rely soley on this because it hard to land and to realy do it successfully you have to know how a wrestler/grappler works.



Couldn't agree more. Way to risky to have to rely on.

SLJ
5/13/2004 7:12am,
And standing on one leg doesn't do wonders for you balance.

The_Dude73
5/13/2004 7:27am,
Just to add something else to this, I've often felt that BJJ takedowns are fairly weak. A guy who has only learned BJJ usually doesn't have great takedowns (think Matt Serra). They're more Judo style takedowns, yet not at the level of a Judo stylist. This is one reason why you see the Brazilian Sprawl all to often at grappling tournaments. There are some great BJJ guys who were former wrestlers, because they bring their takedown skills with them. Many BJJ guys are brilliant on the ground but have trouble getting the fight down there.

Budd
5/13/2004 7:29am,
Originally posted by The_Dude73
Practice your pummeling so you can keep a good dominant hand position, and try to control what greco-roman wrestling calls the danger zone (hard to show without a picture but it's kind of the area between the combatants feet).

I know MrMcFu also gave props, but I just want to point out what an excellent piece of advice this is above.

chaosexmachina
5/13/2004 7:30am,
Alright, good. We already do all of that in my school. Just curious. I get tripped a lot in the clinch. :D

Ronin
5/13/2004 8:55am,
One word:
Shuriken

Blad3
5/13/2004 8:59am,
Are there any examples out there of practitioners of any other style doing a good job of staying off the ground? Yes, Mixed Martial Artists, Judoka's and Wrestler's.