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ThunderClap00
4/11/2015 12:17am,
Hey all.

As my first post here I just wanted to say I've been a lurker for a while and I finally made an account. Looking at many of the threads it seems to me that you guys bash on reality based martial arts an awful lot. Why so much hostility? Don't get me wrong, I love MMA and grappling and all that but I would rather learn something that will give me a wider range of skills than just learning how to punch, kick and wrestle. So I want to know what is everyone's beef with RBMA?

Second question: what is everyone's favorite style and why do you train?

plasma
4/11/2015 7:56am,
Because RBSD/RBMA are often not based on anything remotely based on reality. They often trained in the same dead patterns common to ineffective Martial Arts trading wooden swords and Gis for Plastic Guns and BDUs. And its practitioners often spout nonsensical no-win scenarios involving multiple armed opponents as reasons why other arts aren't as effective.

Welcome to Bullshido.

Eudemic
4/11/2015 8:18am,
Hostility is a very strong word. . . I think a better one would be "disrespect."

Anyway, everything Plasma said was basically correct. Most RBSD systems' origins and syllabi are completely disconnected from real, actual experience in the areas they are supposed to provide training in, and because of this they wind up producing groups of practitioners who aren't nearly as competent as they believe themselves to be. Beyond that, though, you will find a large percentage of RBMA/RBSD practitioners are drawn to the systems by claimed military/LEO connections. . .

These people are often going to be the sort who want the skill-sets and personal abilities that come with those professions but don't like the demands of the actual training or the risk associated with the actual job. There isn't anything inherently wrong with LARPing or playing pretend, but you will also see a lot of these people lose sight of who they really are and what they are really doing; getting too big for their britches and becoming rather asshole-ish.

(I mostly like studying historical arts that don't necessarily have a living tradition, but unfortunately have not had any kind of regular, alive training for a few years now. . .)

Mr. Machette
4/11/2015 9:41am,
For instance; a good example of RBSD failing in the R department is the ol' stomp on the assailant's instep to counter a rear naked choke.
Not only is it a low percentage technique but it leaves people who are confident in it vulnerable at a time when being able to fight back counts the most.
Another one is the ol' fist full of car keys. Sure that has to smart like a bitch but it won't incapacitate. It'll just piss someone off really bad.
In the kinds of situations that RBSD nutriders ten to spend all their time romanticizing incapacitation is key. Efficable technique is key. Selling people anything less than that is irresponsible, exploitative and in total disregard for the safety of their clients. That's pretty low when you think ahout it.
I'd like to leave y'all with a small brain worm if may. Something to think about when someone tries to convince they're onto some vigilante, prison yard, OSS secret squirel, suburban comando ****.
If you happen to live in a time of relative civil order, with a functioning local constabulary and a fully grown man suggests in all sincerity that you carry a sword in public as bum repellant; it may be prudent to question the reality that's prefacing his self defense.

Holy Moment
4/11/2015 10:09am,
Another one is the ol' fist full of car keys. Sure that has to smart like a bitch but it won't incapacitate. It'll just piss someone off really bad.

If you're punching with them they do have the potential to cut like you're wearing a ring, though. It's a good Street move in a pinch.

ghost55
4/11/2015 10:34am,
If you're punching with them they do have the potential to cut like you're wearing a ring, though. It's a good Street move in a pinch.

I remember in Driver's Ed they told us to always approach the car holding the keys in case someone jumps you. I thought it sounded fucking ridiculous. If I'm mugging some 110lb girl and she tries to cut me with her car keys, I'm not just going to give up and run away. Wait. That came out wrong.

MrGalt
4/11/2015 10:36am,
If you're punching with them they do have the potential to cut like you're wearing a ring, though. It's a good Street move in a pinch.

I think the idea is first you learn to punch effectively, then if you want to have keys poking out of your fist while you do that's a bonus. Most people who fantasize about the key thing think it completely spares them the responsibility of learning how to punch and engaging in the kind of practice that leads to learning how to punch.

Guird
4/11/2015 10:45am,
They tend to devote a significant portion of their training to techniques and approaches which are legally and ethically problematic, not trained with realism, and not tested in a full contact environment against competent opponents.

Some also spend time on deescalation and conflict avoidance, which would be a very good thing if there were a reliable way to verify if the approaches they teach are viable.

Some RBSD schools also include ordinary kickboxing, wrestling, and grappling in their training. Many forget the key advantage of these arts and don't train them alive (the KM school near me teaches boxing punches, MT kicks and elbows, but never spars). Those that do will probably indeed offer decent training, but merely decent. not good. The time spent dead-drilling techniques you will never truly get the hang of is time not spent learning to knock people out with a punch.

Another major reason seems to be the attitude of many RBSD students and the method of advertising employed by many schools.

Dork Angel
4/11/2015 10:47am,
For instance; a good example of RBSD failing in the R department is the ol' stomp on the assailant's instep to counter a rear naked choke.
Not only is it a low percentage technique but it leaves people who are confident in it vulnerable at a time when being able to fight back counts the most.

I don't think the idea behind the stomp on the instep is that the opponent lets go and then jumps around theatrically holding his foot but that in the little space where his brain goes "ow" you get a little room to try and apply an actual technique.

I think the problem with RBSD is that they tend to learn patterns rather than skills. What I would like to see is a RBSD that focuses on effective sparring and grappling first then adds on some scenario training where the aim is to lead into the sparring and grappling techniques asap. Most RBSD I've seen train the other way round (i.e. lots of scenario's and patterns with a bit of crappy sparring and grappling added on that is barely related to any of the other moves used in the scenario's and patterns).

Holy Moment
4/11/2015 10:54am,
I remember in Driver's Ed they told us to always approach the car holding the keys in case someone jumps you. I thought it sounded fucking ridiculous. If I'm mugging some 110lb girl and she tries to cut me with her car keys, I'm not just going to give up and run away. Wait. That came out wrong.

I wasn't talking from the perspective of self-defense. The key thing is something hooligans have been known to utilize to good effect. There's an account in Eugene S. Robinson's Fight book about how the author's student actually thought he had been stabbed after getting sucker key-punched in the face (To be fair, the student ended up strangling his assailant to death because he trained jiu-jitsu).

Like the knee kick and solar-plexis punch, the key-punch is something that can work. It just has the misfortune of showing up in a lot of "self-defense tip" articles like the kind Cracked ran a few weeks ago.

ghost55
4/11/2015 10:54am,
Any RBSD school that doesn't teach you how to properly use pocket sand is a waste of time.

Holy Moment
4/11/2015 10:55am,
I think the idea is first you learn to punch effectively, then if you want to have keys poking out of your fist while you do that's a bonus. Most people who fantasize about the key thing think it completely spares them the responsibility of learning how to punch and engaging in the kind of practice that leads to learning how to punch.

You don't necessarily need to know how to box if your opponent isn't looking at you or moving.

ghost55
4/11/2015 10:55am,
If you are bringing weapons to a street fight, why not just use a pair of brass knuckles or something?

MrGalt
4/11/2015 10:59am,
You don't necessarily need to know how to box if your opponent isn't looking at you or moving.

How do you sucker punch somebody who is mugging you?

Dork Angel
4/11/2015 11:23am,
How do you sucker punch somebody who is mugging you?

That's easy, look over their right shoulder and point up in the air saying something along the lines of "look, is that an eagle?"...

Eudemic
4/11/2015 11:28am,
(the KM school near me teaches boxing punches, MT kicks and elbows, but never spars)

Krav teaches snappy, karate/TKD-style kicking, and a lot of how they perform elbows and knees differs from what you'll see in MT. Their curriculum will technically share some of the basic punches with boxing, but the names they use and how the punches are taught will usually be different from what you would see in a boxing gym.

Krav schools sparring is entirely up to the instructor, but typically it isn't something you will ever see much of and even when they do it typically won't be worth much.