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TChoke
3/22/2015 4:27pm,
So, being a white belt for someone can be frustrating, but actually im getting a lot of fun getting aware of what works and what doesn't. Well, i have been noticing that apply directly a kimura, triangle or else from "standard positions" on higher belt is 99% impossible. Maybe cause we train always the same movements and defenses, getting used to them. Im not saying that they don't work, actually i always train them, but key words here are Combinations and Experience (in the sense of awareness). Thats the most important thing ive learned during these few months, apart from the single technique. I love stuff like advanced gi chokes, heel hooks or kneebars, but there will be time for that. Being more technical, for now im learning to combine guillotines and gogoplatas with sweeps or other subs, for example from failed triangle gogoplata works perfectly (almost 3 out of 3 taps), and also hip sweep -> guillotine works very well (maybe cause guys are trained to defend kimura from there?)
However, this week is dedicated to the study of STRAIGHT ankle lock (white belts aren't allowed to get more leglocks, what a pity). Any advice/videos from you guys about these three subs in particular? What "unorthodox" tools do you have to surprise your rolling mates?

P.s: sorry for my bad english, Oss

BKR
3/23/2015 4:14pm,
I'd suggest you follow the program your teacher(s) set forth for you.

And stop counting taps...3 out of 3 taps...just stop...

Hadzu
3/23/2015 4:59pm,
I'd suggest you follow the program your teacher(s) set forth for you.

And stop counting taps...3 out of 3 taps...just stop...

This. A nautical shitton of this. No one competent will suggest that you eschew proper technique in favor of learning "unorthodox tricks" to get guys to tap. That might work on crappy white-belts, but when you go up against people with solid fundamentals, they will shut you down every time. Work on your basics, drill the techniques until you catch yourself doing them in your sleep, and worry more about executing the techniques correctly and with good timing. If you have any questions or uncertainties, talk to your instructor about it, since s/he will likely be infinitely more qualified to point out what you're doing right/wrong than a bunch of strangers on the internet.

That said, welcome to Bullshido, and good luck with your training.

blackmonk
3/23/2015 5:00pm,
Well, as far as straight ankle locks go, you need to review fundamentals. If you're fishing for tricks, it may get you a couple of "taps", but it will eventually slow or halt your progress. 100% (literally) of the ankle locks that I get in practice are simple, fundamental techniques from common positions.

I would suggest buying Reilly Bodycomb's digital download on ankle attacks. Or, if you'd like, I'm sure myself, sambosteve, or zapruder could make you a video.

Lanner Hunt
3/23/2015 6:15pm,
Hm. I think you should look at your training a little more critically.

I've seen what you're talking about before, which is why I say reevaluate. As far as orthodox stuff goes, 'orthodox' doesn't translate to 'simple'. A triangle or an armbar or a kimura might be 'orthodox', but they're still complex techniques that require a ton of practice to be able to apply quickly and effectively. You not being able to land them reliably (especially at a lower rank) doesn't mean the technique itself is poor or too predictable; it just generally means there's, a difference in skill. I'd say to keep working on the 'orthodox'. Stop worrying about how good it is now, just focus on making it better.

And seriously, 'what works and what doesn't' isn't what you should be worrying about as a white belt.

karma2343
3/24/2015 1:20pm,
And seriously, 'what works and what doesn't' isn't what you should be worrying about as a white belt.
This is true, but can be easily misconstrued, so I'm going to add to this. Worrying about what does and doesn't work isn't something to worry about because (1)you are still building your game, so it's too soon to discard moves you feel "don't work for you" because you haven't put enough practice into any of the moves to determine whether or not they work for you. Get a **** ton of mat time practicing everything you are taught, and once you start to suck less, then you can determine which moves work better for you.

Also, (2)worrying about which techniques are inherently more effective than others is something you should never worry about if you have a competent instructor. If they've earned their belts through competitive success and thousands of hours of mat time, you can probably trust that they know what they're doing.

And to echo what BKR said, don't count taps. Just don't. Especially when you're a white belt, because a lot of the time higher belts will be going easy on you and let you get subs that they wouldn't actually give up in a "real" rolling session.

TChoke
3/25/2015 12:27pm,
Yeah counting taps it's b.s. sorry for that, but i have never told that i don't train let's say "orthodox" moves, and i have never considered them simple. For my frame my instructor adviced me to try chokes or locks using legs instead of kimuras or else that require arm force, so i wanted to deepen these aspects. From your comment i understood that a white belt shouldn't concern about that yet, so i will wait a bit more to customize my game.

PS: Execute techniques with good timing and know when to hit them was a great advice thank you Hadzu. Seems obvious but it doesn't at all

goodlun
3/27/2015 1:08pm,
Do you really want to train in a style that can be so easily defeated by someone just because they do something a little bit or heck even a lot different?
What would be the fucking point if you as a white belt just needed to do xyz different in order to get higher belts to tap?
That wouldn't be much of a martial arts system now would it?
Truth is its going to take you years how to deal with higher belts and you should be fucking happy for it.

ghost55
3/27/2015 2:13pm,
When I just started out, I focused way too much on submissions. For whatever reason, I quickly worked out how to make the guillotine choke work for me, and my below average size made slipping into back control on other complete beginners relatively easy. What this meant though, was that I never really developed the ability to do basic **** liked consistently sweep people or hold on to dominant positions. I probably wasted a solid four or five months of training with that ****. You want to get better? Drill sweeps and escapes from bad positions until you are too tired to move. The submissions will just kind of happen as you get better.

blackmonk
4/02/2015 11:06pm,
When I just started out, I focused way too much on submissions. For whatever reason, I quickly worked out how to make the guillotine choke work for me, and my below average size made slipping into back control on other complete beginners relatively easy. What this meant though, was that I never really developed the ability to do basic **** liked consistently sweep people or hold on to dominant positions. I probably wasted a solid four or five months of training with that ****. You want to get better? Drill sweeps and escapes from bad positions until you are too tired to move. The submissions will just kind of happen as you get better.

I was a technique collector for a LONG time, and on the advice of a sambo instructor, I swore off submissions for a while. Almost two years. During that time, I just learned how to wrestle. Now that I have re-introduced submissions into my game, my finishes are much more quick and decisive.

I did the same thing with sacrifice throws, also.

BKR
4/03/2015 11:57am,
Ghost, it's a common mistake to get focused on techniques over as blackmonk called it "wrestling".

Because the **** in between the techniques (finishing techniques/reversals(sweeps) is VERY important.

It's like in Judo, where typically no emphasis is put on basic movement, grip, or posture (and their interactions), just on learning a book of techniques.

So you end up with people who can (maybe) do a lot of techniques, but can't put anything together for ****, move one-two-three-throw in straight lines only, don't transition to groundwork, etc etc blah blah blah.

Anyway, you are seeing the light, which is good !

goodlun
4/03/2015 10:36pm,
I honestly think schools should focus on teaching beginners a bit more about grip fighting and how and where to get grips and hooks.
In BJJ that means in things other than just the safe position inside a close guard.

plasma
4/04/2015 5:32am,
So, being a white belt for someone can be frustrating, but actually im getting a lot of fun getting aware of what works and what doesn't. Well, i have been noticing that apply directly a kimura, triangle or else from "standard positions" on higher belt is 99% impossible. Maybe cause we train always the same movements and defenses, getting used to them. Im not saying that they don't work, actually i always train them, but key words here are Combinations and Experience (in the sense of awareness). Thats the most important thing ive learned during these few months, apart from the single technique. I love stuff like advanced gi chokes, heel hooks or kneebars, but there will be time for that. Being more technical, for now im learning to combine guillotines and gogoplatas with sweeps or other subs, for example from failed triangle gogoplata works perfectly (almost 3 out of 3 taps), and also hip sweep -> guillotine works very well (maybe cause guys are trained to defend kimura from there?)
However, this week is dedicated to the study of STRAIGHT ankle lock (white belts aren't allowed to get more leglocks, what a pity). Any advice/videos from you guys about these three subs in particular? What "unorthodox" tools do you have to surprise your rolling mates?

P.s: sorry for my bad english, Oss

I had a long reply type out but I deleted it. Really wasn't worth posting. At the moment just train, you'll figure out why you post is stupid after a few more years of training.

BKR
4/06/2015 10:34am,
I honestly think schools should focus on teaching beginners a bit more about grip fighting and how and where to get grips and hooks.
In BJJ that means in things other than just the safe position inside a close guard.

That's a conclusion I came to in Judo as well.

Years ago, (like 15 or 20?), when I was transitioning more towards coaching/teaching, the consensus was that if you taught any grip "fighting" to beginners, they would just focus on that rather than learning the "techniques",because Judo was so "technique" based in that the focus was on learning the techniques (throws/pins/chokes/armbars). The issue that I started to see though was that you had guys and gals who could do techniques (sort of), but could not effectively apply them.

Our mutual acquaintance Gerald Lafon was one of the first in the US at least to really emphasize the difference between technique and skill. He took that lead from a well known British judoka, Geoff Gleason.

You would think it would be obvious that in grappling, uniform or otherwise, how you put your hands on a opponent would be fairly important...

blackmonk
4/06/2015 2:15pm,
That's a conclusion I came to in Judo as well.

Years ago, (like 15 or 20?), when I was transitioning more towards coaching/teaching, the consensus was that if you taught any grip "fighting" to beginners, they would just focus on that rather than learning the "techniques",because Judo was so "technique" based in that the focus was on learning the techniques (throws/pins/chokes/armbars). The issue that I started to see though was that you had guys and gals who could do techniques (sort of), but could not effectively apply them.

Our mutual acquaintance Gerald Lafon was one of the first in the US at least to really emphasize the difference between technique and skill. He took that lead from a well known British judoka, Geoff Gleason.

You would think it would be obvious that in grappling, uniform or otherwise, how you put your hands on a opponent would be fairly important...

If you think of a judo match in a logical, realistic progression, proper gripping has primacy over all other aspects.

That's one thing that I constantly practice, and is the most-often complimented feature of my game. My throws aren't super technical... Sort of brutish and muscled, to be honest.

Grips have primacy IMO because they can change the nature of each technique, ie offsides grip vs traditional grip uchi mata = HUGE difference in execution, in my experience.

goodlun
4/06/2015 2:41pm,
You would think it would be obvious that in grappling, uniform or otherwise, how you put your hands on a opponent would be fairly important...
I would say the ONE thing I have actually learned about grappling is how and where you put your grips and hooks is everything. It really comes down to inches or maybe even less. The differences you get in leverage, the ability to actually frame, the ability to block movement, the ability to be able to actually apply a technique keeps coming down to having my damn hands in the right grip and just ever so just in the right fucking spot. Being off by a little makes a mountain of a difference.