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plasma
2/02/2015 10:12am,
16608

16609


So as Pete Maunder insists on arguing with the faceless Bullshido Facebook account that is more interested in making fun of him than having a serious discussion, I'll start the discussion on the forums to answer some of his concerns. Pete is welcome to join our community as it may him get some serious responses instead of getting all worked up on Facebook.

His concern is that BJJ gets "rose tinted glasses" meaning we don't bring Bullshido's ultra critical eye towards BJJ that we bring towards Aikido or other arts. I think that is a fair criticism so lets figure out why. I argue it is not limited to BJJ but inclusive of Wrestling, BJJ, Judo, Sambo, Kyokushin, Muay Thai and numerous Kickboxing variants. What Bullshido believes in is alive training and pressure tested techniques. In that vain alive training is not limited to those arts specified above. Tae Kwon Do is becoming more common place at the high levels of fighting and Jeet Kune Do schools that are more based on Jiu Jitsu, Kali and Kickboxing than Wing Chun using Bruce Lee's philosophy of taking what works. The point I am trying to make is Bullshido gives room for arts that pressure test their techniques either through sport like BJJ or through stick sparring like Kali. Therefore, while all these arts have some fault that doesn't make it the perfect fighting art they do give some sort of skill set that will allow you to survive and control an unpredictable street fight situation.

Now, saying this it is unfair to critique each situation on the "what if" mentality. Pete brings up the Jiu Jitsu street fight video earlier in the week so we can analyze that.

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=124006


Pete argues that the attackee what in danger by being on the ground. We can all definitely agree to that. However, it can be said that he didn't bring the fight to the ground but fell as a result of a sucker punch. It was Jiu Jitsu that trained him to get the underhook and control the fight. Playing the "what if" game here is unfair, "what if" the guys buddies tried to start stomping him. I don't know, did the have buddy to prevent that, would he of used the underhook to get back up and run?, would of he got his ass beat in a no-win scenario? What if after the attacker started to lose he went for his knife? All that could of be analyzed is what happened in the video, in the video the attackee used Jiu Jitsu and took no damage and the controlled the fight. He could of been in real danger if any of the above happened, but it didn't. No art is going to prepare you to Jason Bourne your way out of crazy scenarios that don't happen to your average suburbanite. Your best bet is to be aware of your surroundings and be prepared to fight or flight depending on what gives you the best chance of survival. Honestly, while running is a good option, I wonder how long the people suggesting it can run before their lack of cardio and cheeseburger diet bites them in the ass.

As for his "appeal to authority claim", well I can hardly be considered an authority, if I am this world is in big trouble. However, after 14 years of training and teaching between weapons arts that address multiple armed attackers, "self-defense" oriented training as well as combat sports under multiple rule sets. I will say that sport training does a great job if not better job on training people to control an aggressive attacker than many of so called self-defense street arts. I recall back when I was instructing knife seminars, I always had a drill that used a shock knife and had people try to use their "knife defense" on it. While I consistently got inside people's defenses, I do recall the people with sport grappling experience were always much more difficult, if only that they were often stronger and just simply moved better. But this is just evidence based on training situation, I only had 1 punch swung at me in my life and that wasn't even when I was helping DerAuslander bounce. I travel a lot and to nice and shitty parts of the world and I never put myself in situations that require me to "break out my skillz." So I would hardly consider myself an authority.

Pete Maunder free feel to join up and point out the flaws in my post. The article was simply a breakdown of how BJJ was used to nullify the attacker. If the video involved Aikido or even Wing Chun we would of done the same type of write up. The thing is, it's consistently said BJJ is terrible for self-defense and *insert X* is better. Except these BJJ self-defense videos pop up once or twice a year it seems, which often ends with the same results, while there are never any *insert X* videos. Except people that study *insert X* are always the first to point out how the BJJ guys would of been beat up "if Y happened."

Devil
2/02/2015 2:50pm,
I read through the FB thread. That David O'Malley is a special flower, isn't he?

Yeah, there's some retardation going on in that thread. As I was reading through your post here there was one point I wanted to comment on:

"Tae Kwon Do is becoming more commonplace at the high levels of fighting."

Okay, that's not untrue in the UFC. I don't know how much that says about the relative validity of TKD as a fighting art though. Here's what I see when I look at the UFC now. It seems to be declining as a tool by which you can measure the quality of a fighting art.

It's all driven by money. Lots of fans basically want to see brawls. Muay Thai in a cage. They don't want to see fighters like Jon Fitch who lay on people and punish them relentlessly for the entire fight. So the UFC is hand picking fighters who will stand and bang. But in my opinion a lot of the bangers would get their asses kicked if the UFC would let fighters get away with boring and relentless ground and pound without standing them up and/or cutting them altogether. Boring and relentless ground and pound is fucking effective for fighting. It just sucks to watch.

My point here is that I believe ground fighting tactics, if employed correctly are even more valuable in a self defense encounter than modern prize fighting would lead you to believe.

plasma
2/02/2015 3:01pm,
I read through the FB thread. That David O'Malley is a special flower, isn't he?

Yeah, there's some retardation going on in that thread. As I was reading through your post here there was one point I wanted to comment on:

"Tae Kwon Do is becoming more commonplace at the high levels of fighting."

Okay, that's not untrue in the UFC. I don't know how much that says about the relative validity of TKD as a fighting art though. Here's what I see when I look at the UFC now. It seems to be declining as a tool by which you can measure the quality of a fighting art.

It's all driven by money. Lots of fans basically want to see brawls. Muay Thai in a cage. They don't want to see fighters like Jon Fitch who lay on people and punish them relentlessly for the entire fight. So the UFC is hand picking fighters who will stand and bang. But in my opinion a lot of the bangers would get their asses kicked if the UFC would let fighters get away with boring and relentless ground and pound without standing them up and/or cutting them altogether. Boring and relentless ground and pound is fucking effective for fighting. It just sucks to watch.

My point here is that I believe ground fighting tactics, if employed correctly are even more valuable in a self defense encounter than modern prize fighting would lead you to believe.

While I agree with your post, especially regarding the selection of fighters in the UFC. There is a reason I haven't watched an event in several years. The point I was training to make is Tae Kwon Do is an art that tends to be **** on Bullshido due to McDojo practices and generally poor quality of the students. However, it has been shown to be effective when employed and trained in pressure tested environments. Just because it may lose to solid wrestler in the cage doesn't mean that a pressure tested TKDer couldn't employ those skills in a self-defense situation.

Devil
2/02/2015 3:09pm,
While I agree with your post, especially regarding the selection of fighters in the UFC. There is a reason I haven't watched an event in several years. The point I was training to make is Tae Kwon Do is an art that tends to be **** on Bullshido due to McDojo practices and generally poor quality of the students. However, it has been shown to be effective when employed and trained in pressure tested environments. Just because it may lose to solid wrestler in the cage doesn't mean that a pressure tested TKDer couldn't employ those skills in a self-defense situation.

I agree.

Generally speaking, if I were going to build some imaginary perfect fighter I would like him to have some of the kicking skills possessed by high level TKD guys. I view those skills as something that is best suited to be icing on an already skilled fighter's cake.

Learn how to grapple. Learn how to box. Learn how to fight in the clinch. Then kick away with confidence, knowing that if you **** up and get a leg caught you can recover. That's the world according to me.

Ming Loyalist
2/02/2015 4:06pm,
i am sad that the screen caps are too low-res for me to see, and i can't find the argument on the FB page to bask in the glorious arguments that our friend pete is making.

plasma
2/02/2015 4:29pm,
i am sad that the screen caps are too low-res for me to see, and i can't find the argument on the FB page to bask in the glorious arguments that our friend pete is making.


It's under the 10 items BJJ list shared from Meerkatsu a few days ago.

traversnz
2/02/2015 6:14pm,
I think the difference why non-alive arts get a hard time here is that the defenders can never admit they have been wrong about ANYTHING, EVER.
I've trained TMAs and gained something out of them. I'm back doing an alive art, and getting feedback with every roll - sometimes things work and sometimes they don't. If it doesn't work, it doesn't really affect anyone's opinion of me. Some hardcore TMA'ers get all caught up in the rank/experience thing, whereas I'd rather focus on being better by getting better. A 6-dan asshole is still an asshole. I'm an old guy who continues to test myself, and I'm happy with that. I read and occasionally post on Bullshido becasue it seems most of you are like this too. Enough love, back to training.

Holy Moment
2/02/2015 8:58pm,
Did I ever tell you guys about the time Multiple-Opponent Mel got sodomized by five Dan Severns?

ghost55
2/02/2015 9:39pm,
No. Please do.

FinalLegion
2/02/2015 9:47pm,
What is up with this guy? It seems, to me, that he's disguising his contempt for BJJ by claiming that Bullshido overtly favors it and sees it through rose tinted glasses. There's all this anger directed at BJJ...why?

Although I did not see it in the FB thread, has he mentioned anyplace else what he trains in?

W. Rabbit
2/02/2015 10:19pm,
There's all this anger directed at BJJ...why?


Karma.

Besides who really trains BJJ because they're a BJJ fanboy? That's so 90's.

Some of us just train BJJ so we can defeat BJJ fanboys.

Mr. Machette
2/02/2015 11:20pm,
Did I ever tell you guys about the time Multiple-Opponent Mel got sodomized by five Dan Severns?
Was that the time Dan used his homuncualr penis to break a dimensional hole in space time, allowing several parallel Severns to break through, wreaking havoc on our worlds TKD forms tournaments and unmolested butt holes?

cualltaigh
2/02/2015 11:31pm,
There's all this anger directed at BJJ...why?


I would venture it is because of this:


So it has been going around the web a video of an Alliance Jiu Jitsu Purple Belt being attacked during a pickup basketball game and using BJJ to control and defend himself. Bullshido has always frowned on arts that do not pressure test their techniques and do not perform what is called "Alive Drilling." Now one of the best ways to pressure test techniques is via sport. Despite the rules, combat sports are the closest most of us will ever be to a "real fight" and is a safe way to try to apply techniques against a resisting opponent trying to do the same to you. However, there are many out there that claim that their techniques are too dangerous to use in sparring and playing by the rules will get you trouble once to go to the deadly streets with multiple opponents, broken glass and whatever else there is. While the streets are in fact unpredictable, human movement is not. So lets go through the Video blow by blow and see what happened and how Brazilian Jiu Jitsu was used in a self defense situation.

It's because Plasma holds BJJ up as an example of an alive art that pressure tests itself. I'm willing to bet he is an RBSDer that trains in an art that is too deadly to spar, and hence frowned upon by Bullshido.net. However, if the the poster child of BS.net doesn't hold up to it's own level of scrutiny, then any criticisms we might level at his own beloved art would be invalidated.

Did I mention that he is a member of closeprotectionworld.com (http://www.closeprotectionworld.com)?

DARPAChief
2/03/2015 12:01am,
Pete argues that the attackee what in danger by being on the ground. We can all definitely agree to that. However, it can be said that he didn't bring the fight to the ground but fell as a result of a sucker punch. It was Jiu Jitsu that trained him to get the underhook and control the fight. Playing the "what if" game here is unfair, "what if" the guys buddies tried to start stomping him. I don't know, did the have buddy to prevent that, would he of used the underhook to get back up and run?, would of he got his ass beat in a no-win scenario? What if after the attacker started to lose he went for his knife? All that could of be analyzed is what happened in the video, in the video the attackee used Jiu Jitsu and took no damage and the controlled the fight. He could of been in real danger if any of the above happened, but it didn't. No art is going to prepare you to Jason Bourne your way out of crazy scenarios that don't happen to your average suburbanite. Your best bet is to be aware of your surroundings and be prepared to fight or flight depending on what gives you the best chance of survival. Honestly, while running is a good option, I wonder how long the people suggesting it can run before their lack of cardio and cheeseburger diet bites them in the ass.

We can probably all agree that there isn't a plethora of choice for purpose-built, Dog Bros.-calibre SD training, but I don't think that precludes any criticism whatsoever of BJJ for that purpose. Your urge to point out "it's probably good enough anyhow", however accurate, is not exactly a satisfactory response for people who just want that acknowledged.

pete.m
2/03/2015 7:35am,
Ok first up:
You want me to come from the "faceless" facebook page where you have my face (I am on the left) and name, to talk to me from behind an anonymous username? Why could we not talk there with you using your own name? That makes no logical sense except for me to presume you don't want people to know who you are. In that case I ask you to remove my name from the text of this post or identify yourself.

Secondly:
That you have either willfully or unknowingly framed this 'serious' discussion in a confrontational manner is not a good start. Me vs Bullshido? You have just drawn a tribal line right away and no doubt immediately set the Bullshido clique against me before they even read a paragraph. The BJJ crowd especially.
You surround yourself with affirming opinions. Most people do. Thats why liberals read liberal newspapers and conservative types read conservative papers. Bullshido is as tribal a place as any other and that is demonstrated from all camps with little critical assessment or rational objectivity from few.
Already in this thread 'retardation' has been used. What's up with this guy. Contempt for BJJ. Someone please show me where that is. Maybe it's the part where i said it was a brilliant system?
And there's the assumption is train in super deadly stuff. Please. Assumptions make you look an arse. All I do is cross train. Did you also miss the part where i praise Bullshido for its work in those areas?

Already the character assassination begins.

If you've seen me posting on the close protection world page you will see that that is resisting moronic security industry supermen. But hey, several replies here have already set the tone for a lack of objectivity. Why am I unsurprised.
So much for a 'serious' discussion.

Thirdly:
The reader generally sets the tone in written communication. If you want, I can perceive your reply as you screaming at me. So me being upset on Facebook is your perception. And you being an experienced Internet forum user I am sure you are aware people tend to take everything confrontationally. But then if we want to talk about perception what am I supposed to think about the Bullshido name acting like an arse because it's Facebook. That is facile at best.

If it help, read this with Morgan Freemans calming tones in mind.

Addressing your points:
The appeal to authority may be unintended, but it is there. Like it, want it or not seniority means people take what's you say as if said from a position of authority. The uninitiated finding Bullshido will naturally tend toward listening more to senior members than regular users and users where a respect from others is perceived. To say something is because that's what the staff of Bullshido say, even if in their experience does not make it a fact, nor is that a qualified answer. In some people's experience they are healed by water that was once exposed to one or two molecules of a substance. Does that make homeopathy's experience a valid answer? Of course not. It is simply anecdotal evidence; which is not acceptable to prove something a fact, especially something depending on so many dynamic variables as violent confrontation.
You said the BJJ guy was never in any real danger. He is in a fight, he is in danger. The fact he is in such a vulnerable position surrounded by unknowns is doing nothing to offset that.

We probably cannot find many videos of martial arts or combatives systems failing. By that logic they are all equally as brilliant as BJJ. Yet there ARE a few videos of guys milling against multiple opponents AND coming out on top. The consistency in all of them is the mobility and gross motor movement attacks, aggression and indiscipline. Interesting huh. Mobility is something you don't have on the ground. That is a fact.

The argument of the "what if's" being just that is asinine. The Titanic was believed unsinkable. It sank. Just because something has not happened yet (at least that we know of and we'd tragically naive to believe it has not) does not mean it won't happen. Most things in life are statistically certain to happen.That means we don't bury our heads in the sand on the matter. That is not how risk works. If you think you, or anyone is safe from kerbs, knives, multiple enemies because I can't show you a video of a BJJ practitioner coming off worse from such an event, you are dangerously naive.

People who train in martial arts or combatives systems for self defence are by definition training for a 'what if'. Yet complicate that with other variables and we're being dumb? Cherry picking or hypocrisy to protect the bias?

Don't get into fights with multiple people? Don't get into fights with one then either. But wait, sometimes we don't get to pick our fights. Running away is not always an option. Even if it is what if the other guy is faster? What if one of the group is faster. You have your shoes on and they are in trainers. If it's so easy to run away why is there interpersonal violence street crime? All we had to do was run away? Someone put a press release out! Sometimes we fight one person and others get involved, friends of the person you are fighting or not. Dude, I've been uniformed security arresting someone who was resisting. Someone came to help. Him. And they did not know each other either.

The vast majority of security precautions taken in life are not done because the what ifs are only what ifs. It is done because sometime, somewhere that what if will happen to someone. That fact is something Bullshido has set a dangerous precedent on actively denying with ignorant, facile, naive and asinine argument. We spend a great deal of time and money in life preparing for what ifs. Except it seems Bullshido does not allow this point raised when it comes to BJJ.

Will need a statistical probability to occur before you will admit BJJ does not actually make someone be "never in any real danger" or admit it is not suited to every situation? What if I did find a video of a BJJ guy getting a shoeing?

You have already have said in this post the guy was in danger, contrary to that assessment. Why did you say it in the first place then?

The perception that Bullshido exhibits bias for BJJ is demonstrably not just mine and by holding it aloft and denying it's weaknesses, in my opinion, is proliferating bullshido.
That and the behavior of some of the staff who use the Facebook page is costing Bullshido credibility, given the credibility and quality of work the site and its staff and users have undertaken that is an absolute shame.

Too much ego. Too much tribalism. Too much self affirming. Too many subjectives stated as fact.

To summarise a few points:
I am asserting that while BJJ is a strong ground system, it is far from the untouchable system it is made out to be by many.

No system is perfect. None of them.

Bullshido needs to open its eyes a little and not swallow it's own hype.

Don't dismiss what's ifs. People who train for self defence are training exactly for a what if.

And to end on an overtly positive note, 'friends' tell you what you need to hear, not what you want to hear. Wanting the bad acknowledged with the good is no BS martial arts. No one can deny that.

plasma
2/03/2015 8:24am,
Ok first up:
You want me to come from the "faceless" facebook page where you have my face (I am on the left) and name, to talk to me from behind an anonymous username? Why could we not talk there with you using your own name? That makes no logical sense except for me to presume you don't want people to know who you are. In that case I ask you to remove my name from the text of this post or identify yourself.


The Bullshido Facebook is controlled by numerous staff members that come from many difference experiences and don't always agree. The issue was with my article on Bullshido.net hence I started a thread and linked it to the public Bullshido Facebook conversation.




Secondly:
That you have either willfully or unknowingly framed this 'serious' discussion in a confrontational manner is not a good start. Me vs Bullshido? You have just drawn a tribal line right away and no doubt immediately set the Bullshido clique against me before they even read a paragraph. The BJJ crowd especially.
You surround yourself with affirming opinions. Most people do. Thats why liberals read liberal newspapers and conservative types read conservative papers. Bullshido is as tribal a place as any other and that is demonstrated from all camps with little critical assessment or rational objectivity from few.
Already in this thread 'retardation' has been used. What's up with this guy. Contempt for BJJ. Someone please show me where that is. Maybe it's the part where i said it was a brilliant system?
And there's the assumption is train in super deadly stuff. Please. Assumptions make you look an arse. All I do is cross train. Did you also miss the part where i praise Bullshido for its work in those areas?

Already the character assassination begins.

If you've seen me posting on the close protection world page you will see that that is resisting moronic security industry supermen. But hey, several replies here have already set the tone for a lack of objectivity. Why am I unsurprised.
So much for a 'serious' discussion.


Were you not arguing with the Bullshido Facebook page? Hence it was Pete vs Bullshido.

Despite what you claim, the Bullshido forum members do not agree and often call each other out. I mentioned nothing of your character, other members did. If you want to make them look like idiots post a bio, what is your experience? Where and what have you trained in?





Thirdly:
The reader generally sets the tone in written communication. If you want, I can perceive your reply as you screaming at me. So me being upset on Facebook is your perception. And you being an experienced Internet forum user I am sure you are aware people tend to take everything confrontationally. But then if we want to talk about perception what am I supposed to think about the Bullshido name acting like an arse because it's Facebook. That is facile at best.

If it help, read this with Morgan Freemans calming tones in mind.

Addressing your points:
The appeal to authority may be unintended, but it is there. Like it, want it or not seniority means people take what's you say as if said from a position of authority. The uninitiated finding Bullshido will naturally tend toward listening more to senior members than regular users and users where a respect from others is perceived. To say something is because that's what the staff of Bullshido say, even if in their experience does not make it a fact, nor is that a qualified answer. In some people's experience they are healed by water that was once exposed to one or two molecules of a substance. Does that make homeopathy's experience a valid answer? Of course not. It is simply anecdotal evidence; which is not acceptable to prove something a fact, especially something depending on so many dynamic variables as violent confrontation.
You said the BJJ guy was never in any real danger. He is in a fight, he is in danger. The fact he is in such a vulnerable position surrounded by unknowns is doing nothing to offset that.

We probably cannot find many videos of martial arts or combatives systems failing. By that logic they are all equally as brilliant as BJJ. Yet there ARE a few videos of guys milling against multiple opponents AND coming out on top. The consistency in all of them is the mobility and gross motor movement attacks, aggression and indiscipline. Interesting huh. Mobility is something you don't have on the ground. That is a fact.

The argument of the "what if's" being just that is asinine. The Titanic was believed unsinkable. It sank. Just because something has not happened yet (at least that we know of and we'd tragically naive to believe it has not) does not mean it won't happen. Most things in life are statistically certain to happen.That means we don't bury our heads in the sand on the matter. That is not how risk works. If you think you, or anyone is safe from kerbs, knives, multiple enemies because I can't show you a video of a BJJ practitioner coming off worse from such an event, you are dangerously naive.

People who train in martial arts or combatives systems for self defence are by definition training for a 'what if'. Yet complicate that with other variables and we're being dumb? Cherry picking or hypocrisy to protect the bias?

Don't get into fights with multiple people? Don't get into fights with one then either. But wait, sometimes we don't get to pick our fights. Running away is not always an option. Even if it is what if the other guy is faster? What if one of the group is faster. You have your shoes on and they are in trainers. If it's so easy to run away why is there interpersonal violence street crime? All we had to do was run away? Someone put a press release out! Sometimes we fight one person and others get involved, friends of the person you are fighting or not. Dude, I've been uniformed security arresting someone who was resisting. Someone came to help. Him. And they did not know each other either.

The vast majority of security precautions taken in life are not done because the what ifs are only what ifs. It is done because sometime, somewhere that what if will happen to someone. That fact is something Bullshido has set a dangerous precedent on actively denying with ignorant, facile, naive and asinine argument. We spend a great deal of time and money in life preparing for what ifs. Except it seems Bullshido does not allow this point raised when it comes to BJJ.

Will need a statistical probability to occur before you will admit BJJ does not actually make someone be "never in any real danger" or admit it is not suited to every situation? What if I did find a video of a BJJ guy getting a shoeing?

You have already have said in this post the guy was in danger, contrary to that assessment. Why did you say it in the first place then?

The perception that Bullshido exhibits bias for BJJ is demonstrably not just mine and by holding it aloft and denying it's weaknesses, in my opinion, is proliferating bullshido.
That and the behavior of some of the staff who use the Facebook page is costing Bullshido credibility, given the credibility and quality of work the site and its staff and users have undertaken that is an absolute shame.

Too much ego. Too much tribalism. Too much self affirming. Too many subjectives stated as fact.

To summarise a few points:
I am asserting that while BJJ is a strong ground system, it is far from the untouchable system it is made out to be by many.

No system is perfect. None of them.

Bullshido needs to open its eyes a little and not swallow it's own hype.

Don't dismiss what's ifs. People who train for self defence are training exactly for a what if.

And to end on an overtly positive note, 'friends' tell you what you need to hear, not what you want to hear. Wanting the bad acknowledged with the good is no BS martial arts. No one can deny that.

So your point is BJJ isn't prefect? I don't think anyone claimed it was. Just an effective tool that has been used time and time again to get people out of shitty situations with video proof. If you want to play in 'what if' land that fine. How often to you train against multiple people or even a single person coming at you at 100% with some sort of weapon and actively countering your defenses? I have for many years using tools such as the shock knives with LEOs including 21 foot drills and unarmed drills after initial contact. It's some of the most difficult and advanced training there is the self-defense realm. It's a situation not often encountered by people therefore unnecessary is most self-defense situations.