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Ellis Dee
11/16/2014 6:20am,
Hey all :)

I was recently contemplating training at Gary Martins gym in Moorebank, but from what I have read online it seems that there are better styles to train in for street self defense generally.


Previously I have trained in Systema which I found particularly interesting, but I want to look for a more practical style. I tried Hapkido which did not feel natural to me at all.

I am basically looking for a style that will allow me to focus on leg work, good sparring techniques and the ability to learn defense against take downs and keep on my feet.

Finally the most important thing to me is defense against knives, I was involved in an incident a few years ago and only by pure luck did I manage to get through it (Tried to run but couldn't escape). Ever since then I have learnt some basic things but I want to advance my skills more, it's constant worry in Sydney.

So to sum it up looking for real world proven style which will keep me on my feet and off the ground, the ability to provide deliverable strikes with results and knife defense. What style has the most emphasis on what i'm looking for?


You know what they say, please no bullshit guys ;)

Piff
11/19/2014 9:59am,
For practical street use, I'd say Judo or kickboxing/boxing is probably gonna be your safest/most practical bet to be fair, and my suggestion is if you see a knife work on your sprinting and get the hell out of there.

Johsak
11/19/2014 8:17pm,
Well the answer isn't necessarily simple.

First off please ignore systema, it's not a truly functional and alive martial art, also don't fall for the Krav Maga type martial art or any of the "too deadly to spar" type.

What you want is a martial art with a proven record in vale-tudo and or MMA (real hand to hand combat essentially) the obvious choices then are Muay Thai/kickboxing, Brazilian Jiu-jitsu and Wrestling.

You don't want to go to the ground (I am not advising this as an attitude just respecting the question) so BJJ is pretty much out so the best combination would be wrestling (this will allow you to stay standing and put others on their back if you want to) and Muay Thai which will allow you to strike effectively.

What I advise is finding a good MMA gym near you, they will offer all three of the above martial arts, try out all three and pick the ones you feel suit you, I would recommend doing all three as this leaves you covered in all three areas of combat. (Striking, Clinch and Ground).

Having said all that a guy with a knife is going to have a big advantage on you and any martial art that tells you they can easily deal with a guy with a knife is lying to you, years of hard training will get you to the point where you would have even chances against a guy with a knife if you are in good shape and well trained.

Sorry the answer isn't more cut and dry or more optimistic.

wingchunx2z
11/26/2014 7:42am,
Hey all :)

I was recently contemplating training at Gary Martins gym in Moorebank, but from what I have read online it seems that there are better styles to train in for street self defense generally.


Previously I have trained in Systema which I found particularly interesting, but I want to look for a more practical style. I tried Hapkido which did not feel natural to me at all.

I am basically looking for a style that will allow me to focus on leg work, good sparring techniques and the ability to learn defense against take downs and keep on my feet.

Finally the most important thing to me is defense against knives, I was involved in an incident a few years ago and only by pure luck did I manage to get through it (Tried to run but couldn't escape). Ever since then I have learnt some basic things but I want to advance my skills more, it's constant worry in Sydney.

So to sum it up looking for real world proven style which will keep me on my feet and off the ground, the ability to provide deliverable strikes with results and knife defense. What style has the most emphasis on what i'm looking for?


You know what they say, please no bullshit guys ;)

Judo or Sanda would probably be best for those goals. MMA of course would cover all your grounds as well, but it might have a heavy focus on ground fighting as opposed to takedown defense focus.

As for weapons defense, I find tha thte bst thign for that is to find military or LEO background training partners and learn from them individually.

Most BJJ or MMA schools probably won;t go into gun and knife disarms, but chances are someone training there has some skills in those areas.

jspeedy
11/26/2014 9:01am,
If you want takedown defense you're getting into bs territory with most people that advertise it. You want to learn to stop a takedown learn from someone who knows how to do a proper takedown, he will know they ways he can be stopped. At lot of systems ponder how to stop a takedown and do it at half speed against a compliant partner who doesn't know how to do a takedown. You'll have to mix it up some, train with grapplers, otherwise you're likely just kidding yourself. Systema generally makes me skeptical, there seem to be some good techniques but then you see guys flailing their arms around, I've never seen it tried on a resisting partner, I'd stay away.

hapkido is pretty similiar to a lot of the self defense stuff I've seen, maybe better depending on the school, maybe with an added emphasis on kicks, and I don't say that to speak highly of hapkido. But it covers all the bases, you'll gey mediocre strikes of all kinds, mediocre judo-esque throws, some ground fighting exposure, and mediocre to crappy weapons instruction, still better than a lot of the self defense out there. The problem with HKD and many self defense system is you don't learn how to apply moves to a resisting partner, when I trained HKD we practiced strikes in the air, on targets, the occasional bad or wave master, then we were told to spar, there wasn't really any strategy taught no proper positioning little, timing or distance taught.I've had the same experience with self defense focused classes that actually do spar. That's why I recommend a sport based system, self defense guys are quick to write off sport systems because they know a fighter will kick their ass. A lot of self defense stuff can be picked up in a short amount of time, kicks to the groin, eye gouges, cheap shots are easy to learn and anyone can do them but you need to know what to do when cheap shots fail.

Im not sure what wingchunxyz is talking about above when learning from military. Maybe someone will correct me here but generally I've been told that the military doesn't spenc a lot of time with hand to hand training. There are "combatives" programs but a lot of them exist outside the military or Are used only in limited cases and certainly aren't the norm for all military guys. There's also mcmapp but I do t know that it's required of military to train. For knife training id look into the filipino systems. FMA focuses on blade and probably offers the most consistently decent knife work but there are many systems and they vary widely in approach and specialty.

Youve mentioned that that you want skill in striking, stopping takedowns, and knife defense. You can probably get all of these at one place, a filipino system might be your best bet. But you can't expect to train at one place and out strike a striking specialist, stop take downs from a grappler, and stop a knife fighter. See what schools are in your area. Consider a sport based system, the movement and conditioning will help you the most. Then supplement with FMA for weapons and self defense.

wingchunx2z
11/26/2014 9:13am,
If you want takedown defense you're getting into bs territory with most people that advertise it. You want to learn to stop a takedown learn from someone who knows how to do a proper takedown, he will know they ways he can be stopped. At lot of systems ponder how to stop a takedown and do it at half speed against a compliant partner who doesn't know how to do a takedown. You'll have to mix it up some, train with grapplers, otherwise you're likely just kidding yourself. Systema generally makes me skeptical, there seem to be some good techniques but then you see guys flailing their arms around, I've never seen it tried on a resisting partner, I'd stay away.

Sytema against a resisting partner.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWkE2r7wFNM

Just for reference.

ermghoti
11/26/2014 9:23am,
Finally the most important thing to me is defense against knives, I was involved in an incident a few years ago and only by pure luck did I manage to get through it (Tried to run but couldn't escape). Ever since then I have learnt some basic things but I want to advance my skills more, it's constant worry in Sydney.

Similar to the anti-takedown, learn a knife-fighting art. Pretty much, escrima is the only game in town here, unless you have some local Dog Brothers. Realistically, unarmed vrs knife training makes you marginally less likely to die against a determined attacker, and against a less determined attacker, running away screaming can not be beat.

Focus on judo, MMA, sanda, BJJ, SAMBO, boxing, kickboxing, Muay Thai, etc in some combination of striking and grappling, and just stay away from people that are trying to stab you.

As mentioned, any of the "realistic defense" options are pretty poor, for the reasons already stated.

ermghoti
11/26/2014 9:25am,
Sytema against a resisting partner.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWkE2r7wFNM

Just for reference.

Seen it. That's probably the best Systema video out there, and it's not all that great. Compare that to the wealth of videos of pudgy compliance, slow motion disarms, and magical no-touch knock downs.

Lanner Hunt
11/26/2014 11:16am,
First and foremost, in terms of takedown defenses, don't look for them in arts/styles that don't actually possess takedowns. That is, by and large most striking arts (Wing Chun is notorious for theorizing and creating anti-takedown and anti-grappling techniques that at best, would be wholly ineffective, and at worst, get you seriously hurt).

The best way to learn how to defend against a takedown is to take judo, bjj, or wrestling. Nothing will make you better equipped to defend against takedowns than a style that will have you sparring full-on against people trying their damnedest to land one on you. Additionally, you'll have the added bonus of learning what to do when, despite your efforts, a takedown still happens.

Bottom line: if you want to prevent going to the ground, you're gonna have to train long and hard against people who are trying to get you there.

Remember, while striking, ground tactics, and knife defenses can be found, most schools or styles aren't going to offer more than one or two (hence why an MMA school would also be good). If a school advertises itself as having all three, proceed cautiously.

Sent from my C5155 using Bullshido - No BS MMA mobile app

wingchunx2z
11/26/2014 12:33pm,
First and foremost, in terms of takedown defenses, don't look for them in arts/styles that don't actually possess takedowns. That is, by and large most striking arts (Wing Chun is notorious for theorizing and creating anti-takedown and anti-grappling techniques that at best, would be wholly ineffective, and at worst, get you seriously hurt).


The best way to learn how to defend against a takedown is to take judo, bjj, or wrestling. Nothing will make you better equipped to defend against takedowns than a style that will have you sparring full-on against people trying their damnedest to land one on you. Additionally, you'll have the added bonus of learning what to do when, despite your efforts, a takedown still happens.

Bottom line: if you want to prevent going to the ground, you're gonna have to train long and hard against people who are trying to get you there.

Remember, while striking, ground tactics, and knife defenses can be found, most schools or styles aren't going to offer more than one or two (hence why an MMA school would also be good). If a school advertises itself as having all three, proceed cautiously.

Sent from my C5155 using Bullshido - No BS MMA mobile app


Not entirely accurate.

Wing chun has takedowns. We jsut don't focus on them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWTHIsshigo <--- Takedowns, mostly reaps, but some far side knee stomps and foot sweeps.

ermghoti
11/26/2014 12:49pm,
Wing chun has takedowns.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=979JwlCUBdI

erezb
11/26/2014 1:39pm,
The most impressive multiple opponent fights on YouTube are from boxers.
The best leg work. Rapid effective striking. For grapling some wresttling. I think even 4-6 months at a good wrestling gym will make you hard to take down.
For specific knife defense a good (hard 2 find) krav maga. Sport martial art with constant sparring is what you want. If you dont need head gear to prevent your face from getting bruised up you are not in a good place.

Sent from my LG-D855 using Bullshido - No BS MMA mobile app

mrtnira
11/26/2014 3:20pm,
Ellis, there is no magic formula.

You can have mediocre training and still succeed if your personal physical/sports characteristics are good. Likewise, you can have great instruction, but if you have slow-to-median reflexes and balance, your ability at the point of use will be limited to your physical capacity.

You've gotten some great advice from others here, but it is also useful to remember that there is no magic formula. I would also suggest conflict avoidance training. If you can avoid a fight you are much, much better off.

Holy Moment
11/26/2014 3:52pm,
Hmm, this was the Gary Martin gym the OP mentioned:

http://www.garymartinkungfu.com.au/effective


How Effective?
VERY! The techniques taught by Gary Martin are so effective they are illegal in all forms of martial arts competition. Not one of our members has ever lost in a real confrontation. We do not train our members to compete in competitions, they are one on one with a ref to control the event. Real attacks are with knives, bottles or groups of attackers and NO rules. This is what we train and prepare you for.

Yeah, stay the **** away.

Holy Moment
11/26/2014 4:02pm,
Yo, Ellis, check this **** out:

http://nsw.wrestling.com.au/?page_id=188

I would definitely recommend checking out the gym owned by Larry Papadopoulos, Boxing Works in Surry Hill. That dude was Bas Rutten's jiu-jitsu coach back in the day.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PY7TnD-6E0E

goodlun
11/26/2014 4:29pm,
As mentioned before if you are worried about knives this is your jumping off point

http://dogbrothers.com/

It can be hard to find a Dog Brothers brand of instructor so your next best is to look for any of the following Eskrima, Arnis, Doce Pares, Kali, Eskrido, or Modern Arnis.
Now you might come across Silat and be tempted but popular opinion is it's not very good.

If you are worried about takedowns and you should be, you need to train in a proper grappling art. Typically this means Wrestling or Judo or any of Judos offspring.

For striking your going to look at any of the sport based full contact striking arts. Don't count out boxing.