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Krijgsman
5/07/2014 11:10am,
I don't generally pimp other sites here, but Jack Slack has a great new article on Fightland about why martial arts are the way they are (and how techniques develop). It was a fantastic read.

http://fightland.vice.com/blog/jack-slack-fighting-motives-part-1

CrackFox
5/07/2014 3:50pm,
I don't know dude.

I only read the first bit but already he's got his terms wrong. That lock Jones is doing is really an ude-gatame, it's a straight arm lock. His opponent slacks it off by bending his elbow, but Jones is nowhere close to turning that into a garame movement. Hair splitting asside, ude-gatame is a very common move in judo and is not seen in any way or form as some ineffectual relic from the jujutsu days.

Yeah, it's mainly applied on the ground - where it's a lot easier to finish - but I know several people who use it in the grip fighting stage to gain an advantage. That looks pretty consistent with how Jones is using it there.

The thing Akoi, Kano, and Mifune are doing is called waki-gatami. Again this is taught as a "real" technique in judo. Again it's not one you'll finish very often, but it does lend itself to giving it a quick try where you'll at least get a reaction.

BKR
5/07/2014 5:30pm,
I don't know dude.

I only read the first bit but already he's got his terms wrong. That lock Jones is doing is really an ude-gatame, it's a straight arm lock. His opponent slacks it off by bending his elbow, but Jones is nowhere close to turning that into a garame movement. Hair splitting asside, ude-gatame is a very common move in judo and is not seen in any way or form as some ineffectual relic from the jujutsu days.

Yeah, it's mainly applied on the ground - where it's a lot easier to finish - but I know several people who use it in the grip fighting stage to gain an advantage. That looks pretty consistent with how Jones is using it there.

The thing Akoi, Kano, and Mifune are doing is called waki-gatami. Again this is taught as a "real" technique in judo. Again it's not one you'll finish very often, but it does lend itself to giving it a quick try where you'll at least get a reaction.

Good observations...I skimmed through it and saw basically the same thing.

Waki Gatame can be pretty devastating. In judo we have to do it with control, but in a SD situation you'd do it very quickly and break the arm right away if necessary.

judoka_uk
5/07/2014 5:39pm,
I would actually be tempted to call it Waki Gatame, whilst it's not ude hishigi waki gatame, it's pretty clear from the gif that the driving force behin the break is the arm entanglement in Jones' armpit, which provides the leverage for the break.

http://i.minus.com/ibjY8t7unwLoEg.gif

This is assuming, of course, that we have to give it a Judo name and can't just call it brutal standing armlock.

Krijgsman
5/07/2014 5:44pm,
I don't know dude.

I only read the first bit but already he's got his terms wrong. That lock Jones is doing is really an ude-gatame, it's a straight arm lock. His opponent slacks it off by bending his elbow, but Jones is nowhere close to turning that into a garame movement. Hair splitting asside, ude-gatame is a very common move in judo and is not seen in any way or form as some ineffectual relic from the jujutsu days.

Yeah, it's mainly applied on the ground - where it's a lot easier to finish - but I know several people who use it in the grip fighting stage to gain an advantage. That looks pretty consistent with how Jones is using it there.

The thing Akoi, Kano, and Mifune are doing is called waki-gatami. Again this is taught as a "real" technique in judo. Again it's not one you'll finish very often, but it does lend itself to giving it a quick try where you'll at least get a reaction.

I don't know that I agree. It was a particular application of ude garame and it was specifically the turning torque on the shoulder (not on the elbow) that had such an effect on Glover and the same lock that Mir used against Pete Williams. I guess it may depend on how entangled something has to be before it becomes garame vs gatame. Judo semantics woo!

I was more interested in the statements about how techniques developed with a particular context in mind (jujutsu and aikijutsu wrist locks/disarms meant for armored combat etc) and the benefits of live/resisted training. I give Jack the benefit of the doubt since he is primarily a striker who is just getting into grappling. The fact that he bothers to try to use Judo terms as well as BJJ makes me happy enough that it doesn't bother me if he doesn't quite get the term correct.

CrackFox
5/07/2014 5:47pm,
Why do you think that lock is tweaking the shoulder?

Krijgsman
5/07/2014 5:49pm,
Why do you think that lock is tweaking the shoulder?

Because Glover has said after the fight that when Jones cranked it (he did so explosively early in the fight) it injured his shoulder and he couldn't throw his right hand anymore.

BJMills
5/07/2014 5:51pm,
Why do you think that lock is tweaking the shoulder?

Because after the fight Glover said the lock messed up his shoulder.

Looked like more pressure on the elbow to me, but I'm quite certain he has a much better perspective on it than the rest of us ;-)

Krijgsman
5/07/2014 5:54pm,
Because after the fight Glover said the lock messed up his shoulder.

Looked like more pressure on the elbow to me, but I'm quite certain he has a much better perspective on it than the rest of us ;-)

That was my though. I will say that I don't know nearly enough of the Japanese for Judo to actually argue what the lock qualifies as in the Japanese, so I should probably duck out of the garame vs gatame discussion. I guess Jacks point was more "look at this old school **** working just fine... lets talk about technique".

CrackFox
5/07/2014 6:16pm,
I will say that I don't know nearly enough of the Japanese for Judo to actually argue what the lock qualifies as in the Japanese, so I should probably duck out of the garame vs gatame discussion.
Gatame - arm bar.
Garami- key lock.
I do the standing gatame all the time, but all it usually does is make people cautious about shooting in an underhook.

If Teixira got done in the shoulder though then I guess it doesn't really matter which one of them it was.



I guess Jacks point was more "look at this old school **** working just fine... lets talk about technique".

The rest of the article seems to be all about "oh look at this stuff, it would work if they had swords". I've been hearing that argument for donkeys years off ninjas and supposedly Japanese jujutsu practitioners, and I wasn't really that impressed by it.

I think what you saw in that match was a low percentage, but also low risk, move that gets used a lot to put people off their game, only this time it did some damage. I guess it was bound to work for someone at some point, right?

Krijgsman
5/07/2014 6:21pm,
Gatame - arm bar.
Garami- key lock.
I do the standing gatame all the time, but all it usually does is make people cautious about shooting in an underhook.

If Teixira got done in the shoulder though then I guess it doesn't really matter which one of them it was.



The rest of the article seems to be all about "oh look at this stuff, it would work if they had swords". I've been hearing that argument for donkeys years off ninjas and supposedly Japanese jujutsu practitioners, and I wasn't really that impressed by it.

I think what you saw in that match was a low percentage, but also low risk, move that gets used a lot to put people off their game, only this time it did some damage. I guess it was bound to work for someone at some point, right?

Good point about the percentage. I mean, it obviously messed with Glover and kept him off his game, but didn't end the fight either.

As far as the "it would work with weapons" thing goes, I was reminded of a lot of the recent discussions about Aikido (and other martial arts) we have had in the last little while that also talk about how the context of the development of the technique is part of the reason it is ineffective when taken out of it's context (the connection of Aikido and swordsmanship specifically.)

BKR
5/07/2014 7:09pm,
I would actually be tempted to call it Waki Gatame, whilst it's not ude hishigi waki gatame, it's pretty clear from the gif that the driving force behin the break is the arm entanglement in Jones' armpit, which provides the leverage for the break.

http://i.minus.com/ibjY8t7unwLoEg.gif

This is assuming, of course, that we have to give it a Judo name and can't just call it brutal standing armlock.

That wasn't anything near Waki Gatame...He never really fully applied kansetsu in any case, was banging the guy's elbow to get rid of the underhook.

I agree, no need to give it a "Judo" name.

BKR
5/07/2014 7:10pm,
Because after the fight Glover said the lock messed up his shoulder.

Looked like more pressure on the elbow to me, but I'm quite certain he has a much better perspective on it than the rest of us ;-)

Could well have been both, but the shoulder got injured.

NeilG
5/07/2014 7:31pm,
Torn labrum (http://www.mmafighting.com/2014/5/2/5676650/jon-jones-shoulder-crank-results-in-torn-labrum-for-glover-teixeira) for Teixeira.

MikeD81
5/08/2014 12:20am,
Why do you think that lock is tweaking the shoulder?

He's putting the shoulder through external rotation as well as jamming the humeral head into the joint cavity. That's a pretty unpleasant combination which can lead to a torn labrum as NeilG cited. Anyone who has ever had a torn labrum knows its hurts like hell and also does a really good job restricting your joint movement.

The elbow is bent through most of the movement which is a) protecting that joint somewhat and b) allowing Jone's to exert more torque onto Glover's shoulder joint, therefore adding to the shoulder damage.

With attacking the elbow your actually going after 3 joints not just one, which is why you need the arm hyper extended as well as the thumb pointing in the direction you're going to apply force for the lock.

MikeD81
5/08/2014 12:21am,
Double post