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karaterick
3/07/2014 10:36pm,
Just wanted to pop in for a quick introduction. I've been in martial arts since I was about 6 years old and hold ranks in several systems, mostly intermediate ranks in traditional systems, but I do hold a 3rd Dan as well as a 1st Dan in separate American Karate systems.
I left martial arts in my early 20's after a nasty divorce and became a partier for a very long time. I was out for about 15 years before coming back, was out another 2 years after an injury followed by a marriage, a new baby and a move to NC from FL and then resumed training again a year ago. I recently received my second Black Belt and am in the early stages of opening my own school.
I am a Christian and will be running my new school as a Christian based program. I know this is where many people will be moved to insert "McDojo" comment, but I have a passion for martial arts and believe in training for and teaching effective combat principles. I am mostly a stand-up fighter with enough experience to handle myself on the ground - fighting not grappling. I need to take some classes to improve that aspect of my fighting and will plan on doing so in the not to distant future.
Anyway, just trying to get plugged in and learn as much as I can. This looked like a cool forum.

Thanks

karaterick
3/08/2014 7:51pm,
Good to meet all of you as well.

Hadzu
3/09/2014 1:51pm,
Welcome to the forum; a few questions, if you'll humor me.


I am mostly a stand-up fighter with enough experience to handle myself on the ground - fighting not grappling.

Out of curiosity, what is your experience with ground work? Also, I'm a little curious what you mean when you distinguish between "fighting" and "grappling" -- do you mean to indicate the presence of strikes in the former?


I am a Christian and will be running my new school as a Christian based program.

What are the implications of a Christianity-based Karate curriculum? I'm not trying to demean you or your faith, I'm legitimately just interested to hear what you had in mind.

Thank you, and welcome once again!

karaterick
3/09/2014 2:24pm,
Welcome to the forum; a few questions, if you'll humor me.



Out of curiosity, what is your experience with ground work? Also, I'm a little curious what you mean when you distinguish between "fighting" and "grappling" -- do you mean to indicate the presence of strikes in the former?



What are the implications of a Christianity-based Karate curriculum? I'm not trying to demean you or your faith, I'm legitimately just interested to hear what you had in mind.

Thank you, and welcome once again!


Hi Hadzu, Thanks for responding. To answer your first question -

I guess I can probably best answer that as I'm am by no means a "Sport Grappler" or "grappling" expert, but that I am relatively competent at defending myself on the ground via striking, joint manipulation ect. I guess in short, I wouldn't win a BJJ contest against anyone with much experience, but I'm not a typical TKD guy who's "done for" as soon as the fight goes to the ground.

As far as the Christian aspect of my philosophy goes it's primarily just recognizing God in everything we do, abstaining from eastern religious elements of traditional martial arts and trying to teach and encourage strong moral values in my students. Not unlike many other other martial arts schools do, but with the context being Biblically based and so forth.
I will also, as part of my curriculum for example, require a certain number of community service hours be performed for every rank advancement. That meaning that my students will give of themselves and their time to serve others and their community. I will also teach restraint to any degree possible in self-defense situations.
I have categorized "self-defense" scenarios into tiers:
Avoid - tools to avoid potential conflicts
Evade - How to evade an attacker without resorting to conflict
Defend and Evade - An example would be block an incoming strike and escape to safety
Defend - neutralize an attacker without inflicting undue injury -then escape to safety
Counter - Counter attack -Neutralize attacker
Preemptive Strike - Best defense is a good offense

Each Tier being based on different situations and levels of endangerment and requiring different tools and techniques.
Of course a lot more in depth than I've shared, but wanted to briefly explain where I was coming from.

I hope that helped answer your questions. If not, please don't hesitate to ask more questions. I would be happy to get more detailed.

slamdunc
3/09/2014 3:19pm,
I am a Christian and will be running my new school as a Christian based program.Welcome to Bullshido; Kick ass for Christ.

I know this is where many people will be moved to insert "McDojo" comment, but I have a passion for martial arts and believe in training for and teaching effectiveWe have to be nice here in Newbietown so it may not happen. At any rate, welcome.

W. Rabbit
3/09/2014 4:41pm,
Welcome to Bullshido.

Christ didn't like fighting. But he loved to give people peace, so I think he would have been a grappler and gone for blood chokes.

Or, as the ancient Hebrews called it "old Painless".

Omega Supreme
3/09/2014 4:56pm,
Welcome to Bullshido.

Christ didn't like fighting. But he loved to give people peace, so I think he would have been a grappler and gone for blood chokes.

Or, as the ancient Hebrews called it "old Painless".According to the Gospel of Biff Joshua's (Jesus's real name or if you want to say it in in Hebrew Yĕhsha'):

Josh spent 19 years searching out the 3 wise men who came to his birth. The second wise man was actually a kung fu master who taught Josh the passive kung-fu he named in honor of Josh called "Jew Tao". Every year for his birthday they would go out for Chinese food. A tradition they still observe today.

It's all documented here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamb:_The_Gospel_According_to_Biff,_Christ's_Child hood_Pal

CrackFox
3/09/2014 5:05pm,
[...] I am relatively competent at defending myself on the ground via striking, joint manipulation ect. I guess in short, I wouldn't win a BJJ contest against anyone with much experience, but I'm not a typical TKD guy who's "done for" as soon as the fight goes to the ground.

That typical TKD guy also thinks that, while he's not going to win a BJJ competition, he'd do OK using striking, joint manipulation, etc. if it came down to it.

karaterick
3/09/2014 6:27pm,
That typical TKD guy also thinks that, while he's not going to win a BJJ competition, he'd do OK using striking, joint manipulation, etc. if it came down to it.

This is most probably true. Before I became a practicing Christian I wasn't exactly a peaceful person. I have been in my share of fights, mostly in the form of barroom brawls. I certainly have learned to a degree what does and doesn't work and wouldn't suggest I can hold my own on the ground if I didn't know it to be true.
I also know that in the "real world" you are seldom in a fight against someone who is alone and often on hard surfaces, sometimes in cramped spaces and quite possibly on asphalt, rocks, broken glass ect. So while I believe that it is prudent to understand ground fighting it is simply not my first choice.
That being said, I have all of the respect in the world for grapplers, mma fighters and for that matter TKD guys. It's really less about the art and much more about the teacher and the student. Any style can be extremely effective if understood and executed properly. Although I guess I prescribe to the Bruce Lee philosophy to absorb what is useful and discard what is useless. I think everyone is best served to cross train and determine for themselves what to keep and what to discard.
I have know and trained with some great fighters in many different styles and conversely many horrible fighters from many different styles.
I myself don't know everything (obviously) and will never stop learning and trying to improve. Right now, I'm just excited for the opportunity to do what I love and help others along the way.

Chili Pepper
3/09/2014 6:49pm,
I guess I can probably best answer that as I'm am by no means a "Sport Grappler" or "grappling" expert, but that I am relatively competent at defending myself on the ground via striking, joint manipulation ect. I guess in short, I wouldn't win a BJJ contest against anyone with much experience, but I'm not a typical TKD guy who's "done for" as soon as the fight goes to the ground.

Welcome to Bullshido.

What previous experience indicates that you are relatively competent on the ground?

karaterick
3/09/2014 7:49pm,
Welcome to Bullshido.

What previous experience indicates that you are relatively competent on the ground?

Well firstly, I have a lot of experience fighting and have found from my experience that I am pretty comfortable.
Secondly, the last system I was in integrated BJJ into it's it's curriculum as well as other arts as most MMA and American Karate schools do now. So I do have some coaching and experience in a class setting. Far from and expert, but I do have some experience and understanding.
Thirdly and most importantly, I think fighting has a lot to do with understanding concepts and principles. If you understand leverage and let's say, joint manipulation it doesn't necessarily matter what situation you are in. Horizontal or vertical, leverage is leverage and joint manipulation is joint manipulation. I don't mean to over simplify, but to a degree I believe I'm spot on.
Lastly, it all depends on the circumstances. In a competitive environment under a given set of rules I probably would not fair to well against experienced ground fighters who train almost exclusively for that type of fighting.
In a street fight where you probably only want to inflict a certain level of injury on someone I'm probably pretty comfortable, but if someone's getting the best of me ultimately I have to decide where to draw the line. Against most attackers getting a solid grip on a single finger is probably enough to make them capitulate. If they allow me to break it backwards and continue to fight then I'm probably second guessing myself.
In a real self-defense situation where my survival or great bodily injury is at stake, well that's an entirely different story. Thumbs in their eyes, a handful of windpipe, temple shots - whatever it takes to survive.
My point being that it's not necessarily black and white and there certainly aren't any absolutes. Different circumstances call for different measures and no fighter is great at everything. At this stage in my life I probably prefer to avoid conflict and continue to prepare hard for it should it bring itself upon me.
All that being said, and probably what you are most interested in is that grappling is my weakest area and that it probably almost certainly needs the most attention as I move forward.
Hope that answers...

CrackFox
3/09/2014 11:24pm,
Before I became a practicing Christian I wasn't exactly a peaceful person. I have been in my share of fights, mostly in the form of barroom brawls. I certainly have learned to a degree what does and doesn't work and wouldn't suggest I can hold my own on the ground if I didn't know it to be true.
Oh, I'm sure you were quite the rum customer in your day. Though many of those TKD guys - the ones you feel couldn't handle themselves on the ground so well - would also claim a bit of a dark, violent past.



I also know that in the "real world" you are seldom in a fight against someone who is alone and often on hard surfaces, sometimes in cramped spaces and quite possibly on asphalt, rocks, broken glass ect. So while I believe that it is prudent to understand ground fighting it is simply not my first choice.

Well this is another thing, but I'm glad you brought it up. This is known as the street vs sport cliche. We are in a section of the forum called newbie town, where everyone is required to go easy on you. Outside of here, if you were to try this argument, you would be mocked. You can do a search of the site to see how it usually goes down. I would search using the keyword "lava".


It's really less about the art and much more about the teacher and the student.
Yet there seem to be some arts which consistently do a better job of producing better students than other arts. I wonder why that is?



Any style can be extremely effective if understood and executed properly.
What about the style Yellow Bamboo?

karaterick
3/10/2014 4:43am,
Oh, I'm sure you were quite the rum customer in your day. Though many of those TKD guys - the ones you feel couldn't handle themselves on the ground so well - would also claim a bit of a dark, violent past.


Well this is another thing, but I'm glad you brought it up. This is known as the street vs sport cliche. We are in a section of the forum called newbie town, where everyone is required to go easy on you. Outside of here, if you were to try this argument, you would be mocked. You can do a search of the site to see how it usually goes down. I would search using the keyword "lava".


Yet there seem to be some arts which consistently do a better job of producing better students than other arts. I wonder why that is?


What about the style Yellow Bamboo?

Well you are certainly entitled to your opinion and anyone is entitled to mock me. To do so without knowing me or my experiences personally indicates to me erroneous judgement. It would also indicate to me flawed thinking and probably arrogance, closed mindedness and a false sense of security. All of which can be fatal errors in combat.
I'm not here to debate styles and systems. I'm not a child or wannabe. And I am very secure with my knowledge and abilities while having an a self-awareness of my lack of knowledge and my weaknesses.
To your point of "street vs sport" I will insist that these are indeed very different animals. Whether you and your peers choose to believe this or not is up to you. I will hope that you never have to learn this lesson the hard way.
I'm not saying that proficiency in one doesn't benefit the other other, but to deny the differences is incredibly irresponsible.
As to why some arts produce better students than others, now that's an entirely different argument. I would say that to some extent that's been driven by economics. An MMA cater to a different customer base than a karate school (for the most part). If you are running a school you are going to decide, in most cases one or two things. The first has to be who your customer base is. If it's women and children your curriculum is going to be geared towards fitness and anti-bully programs, but those customers don't really want to get hit in the face. I mean, that's not what they're signing up for.
An MMA school is geared towards exactly the opposite. Predominately young men and teens who absolutely want to hit each other the face and choke each other out. This type of school will by nature usually attract people who to some extent are already physically capable and pretty tough.
So anyway, yes many traditional karate based styles have been watered down and really aren't very effective in "the streets". However, that's not say that at their core, if taught correctly, that they can't be very effective. When I was coming up back in the 70's and 80's some karate schools were very tough places. They were smelly, hot and you got hit. Some schools, though not the masses still hold true to that although they are probably not very profitable compared those that cater to the children and moms.
My first foray into American Karate was a system rooted in Tang Soo Do, Kenpo and Boxing. It was a full contact karate school ala PKA karate which was the major full contact sport during that era. It was a good school and it was tough.
Anyway, while I probably can see where your misconception arise from I think to marginalize an entire art or system demonstrates erroneous thinking. But as I mentioned in my opening, you are certainly entitled to your opinions.

NeilG
3/10/2014 9:28am,
Welcome to Bullshido. The whole martial arts for Jesus thing makes zero sense to me, but best of luck with the martial part of your school anyway.

karaterick
3/10/2014 9:30am,
Oh, I'm sure you were quite the rum customer in your day. Though many of those TKD guys - the ones you feel couldn't handle themselves on the ground so well - would also claim a bit of a dark, violent past.


Well this is another thing, but I'm glad you brought it up. This is known as the street vs sport cliche. We are in a section of the forum called newbie town, where everyone is required to go easy on you. Outside of here, if you were to try this argument, you would be mocked. You can do a search of the site to see how it usually goes down. I would search using the keyword "lava".


Yet there seem to be some arts which consistently do a better job of producing better students than other arts. I wonder why that is?


What about the style Yellow Bamboo?

Opinion respected and thank you.

Chili Pepper
3/10/2014 10:22am,
Thirdly and most importantly, I think fighting has a lot to do with understanding concepts and principles. If you understand leverage and let's say, joint manipulation it doesn't necessarily matter what situation you are in. Horizontal or vertical, leverage is leverage and joint manipulation is joint manipulation. I don't mean to over simplify, but to a degree I believe I'm spot on.

Thank you for your response. The bit I've quoted above reminds me of the saying "you know what the difference is between theory and reality? Theoretically, there's no difference, but in reality ... "

I suspect that you need to roll with some grapplers who specialize in grappling, rather than with people like you who have had some BJJ incorporated into their training. That's not a knock at your training, but that you might be suffering from a lack of perspective.