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itwasntme
11/23/2013 10:46pm,
Over time I would like to be at least a little proficient with all throws, but right now I am trying to get a core takedown game. I am looking at Tai Otoshi or Harai Goshi for a hip throw. I am 6' 2" and @205 lbs. What are some pros and cons to each of these, and might there be a hip throw that would work better for my build?

CrackFox
11/24/2013 12:31am,
Tai otoshi isn't a hip throw. It's a hand throw, and done right they don't touch your hips at all. I'm not pointing this out just to be pedantic, they are two very different throws which you would use in different situations.

The usual way of picking a throw is that you learn all the throws, and then one day you realise you've started to favour one over the others.

I think you should work on developing your tsurikomi goshi first. It is kind of a root move for harai goshi and uchi mata, and has elements you'll use for tai otoshi. Then see where it goes from there.

itwasntme
11/24/2013 9:04am,
Tai otoshi isn't a hip throw. It's a hand throw, and done right they don't touch your hips at all. I'm not pointing this out just to be pedantic, they are two very different throws which you would use in different situations.

Ah, thanks for the correction.


The usual way of picking a throw is that you learn all the throws, and then one day you realise you've started to favour one over the others.

This is normally how my throws have come to me. For the longest time I thought I would never learn Judo lol. I may have just become impatient and frustrated at myself as the only time I land any hip throws are as counters.


I think you should work on developing your tsurikomi goshi first. It is kind of a root move for harai goshi and uchi mata, and has elements you'll use for tai otoshi. Then see where it goes from there.

Looks good to me, thanks CF.

NeilG
11/24/2013 11:16am,
Tsurikomi goshi requires a lot of shoulder flexibility which I don't have. From a competition standpoint harai goshi is probably the most popular but it's not an easy throw to do well. I like it because you don't have to get in as deep as some of the others and it is comfy for me off the standard grip.

Ming Loyalist
11/24/2013 11:50am,
harai goshi is probably the most popular but it's not an easy throw to do well.

it's *really* hard to do well. been working on it for 3 years now and still suck at it.

CrackFox
11/24/2013 11:53am,
I can do tsurikomi goshi, and I have a metal plate in my shoulder which has killed my mobility. Also, if you don't have the mobility required for TKG, you're going to wreck your rotator cuff when you try and do tai-otoshi.

I'm not suggesting making tsurikomi-goshi a main throw. I think if you practice it, you'll feel yourself naturally gravitating towards harai goshi or uchi mata - which is a better way of deciding than picking one off a list. Once one of those clicks, you might find you're not so interested in tai otoshi any more, or you might have decided it's awesome.

Harai and Uchi mata are statistically higher scoring than tai-otoshi, but not by much. Tai-otoshi is still seen as a reliable match winner by a lot of people.

itwasntme
11/24/2013 3:03pm,
Out of curiosity, what is the general consensus on hip throws? Should I be worried about having one as a go-to instead of just a counter?

I have been weary of them since I am usually much taller than a lot of people I train with seeing that a failed hip throw gives up my back, and uke is generally already under my center of gravity before they even bend at the knees.

As I stated, I generally hit O Uchi Mata as a counter and occasionally off the whizzer, and sometimes Harai Goshi as a counter to a body lock/double underhooks.


My best/favourit hip throw is Koshi Gurma (Hip wheel)

It transitions well to no gi

I guess now might be a good time to mention that the majority of competition I foresee myself participating in would be NAGA style no gi tourneys and MMA events. Nice suggestion as well.


and the 'grip' over the shoulders/behind the kneck I find easier to get than under the arm

Methinks you are talking about O Goshi.


It also finishes naturally in kesa getame...win!

Kesa is dat truf!

CrackFox
11/24/2013 4:02pm,
Out of curiosity, what is the general consensus on hip throws?
If you're taller than everyone else, then you're not going to get as much mileage out of them, but they're still probably something you would want to know.

Personally, I hardly ever turn in for throws and prefer to do things which allow me to stay facing my opponent. I only turn in when I have a big opening, usually tai-otoshi. The other thing is that I can hop in and out of tai-otoshi reasonably quickly, so if it fails I can often take a second bite of the cherry.

How long have you been training judo and how much focus do you put on it? I think it's hard for anyone to say what you should or shouldn't be doing. It depends a lot on you, and what your coach is telling you to do. To a certain extent you need to plug away at this stuff and it kind of sorts itself out. It's a very frustrating road though.

itwasntme
11/24/2013 8:25pm,
If you're taller than everyone else, then you're not going to get as much mileage out of them, but they're still probably something you would want to know.

Noted. This is what I was thinking.


Personally, I hardly ever turn in for throws and prefer to do things which allow me to stay facing my opponent. I only turn in when I have a big opening, usually tai-otoshi. The other thing is that I can hop in and out of tai-otoshi reasonably quickly, so if it fails I can often take a second bite of the cherry.

Likewise, obviously. I just feel like 1) I need to get out of my comfort zone and 2) I need at least one go-to hip throw, just in case.


How long have you been training judo and how much focus do you put on it?

I've logged about 47 hours since July 31, and had about 2 months prior experience, so....maybe an additional 30 hours.

Judo is a huge focus of mine, with about equal time spent on the ground. I (kick)box one or two days a week when I can, but grappling is my only constant right now. So a closer estimate of my actual takedown time might be around 25-35 hours lol.


I think it's hard for anyone to say what you should or shouldn't be doing. It depends a lot on you, and what your coach is telling you to do. To a certain extent you need to plug away at this stuff and it kind of sorts itself out. It's a very frustrating road though.

Understood. I think my coach is pretty happy with my development (and I'm just now starting to develop). I don't get told I need to focus on any throws in particular, I usually get modifications and additions for the throws on which I focus.

NeilG
11/25/2013 1:11am,
So under a half-year of recreational twice/week practice? You're lucky to pull off a good fart in shiai. Stick to what your sensei are teaching you and ignore the peanut gallery here.

Krijgsman
11/25/2013 4:14am,
I also like Koshi Guruma compared to O Goshi. Similar, but the different grip works for me too (fellow tall guy). Most instructors I have had have steered my toward uchi mata, tai otoshi, and uchi mata because of my height.

Which should also make the point that NeilG made: your instructors will steer you where you need to go. Listen to them, they will be better equipped to tell you what is working for than a bunch of guys on the internet.

itwasntme
11/25/2013 10:38am,
I also like Koshi Guruma compared to O Goshi. Similar, but the different grip works for me too (fellow tall guy). Most instructors I have had have steered my toward uchi mata, tai otoshi, and uchi mata because of my height.

Uchi mata and uchi mata, huh? Do you favor one over the other?


Which should also make the point that NeilG made: your instructors will steer you where you need to go. Listen to them, they will be better equipped to tell you what is working for than a bunch of guys on the internet.

I thought this might give me a little bit of a base to discuss this issue with my coach, instead of just "Hey, hip throwz??" This thread has provided just that for me, so thank you all.

Krijgsman
11/25/2013 2:35pm,
Uchi mata and uchi mata, huh? Do you favor one over the other?



I thought this might give me a little bit of a base to discuss this issue with my coach, instead of just "Hey, hip throwz??" This thread has provided just that for me, so thank you all.

They reaaaaaaaally want me to do uchi mata.

Just kidding, I meant Harai Goshi and Uchi Mata.

And this thread gave me some things to think about to, frankly, so good on yah. If you find yourself getting the head and arm or wrist control with an arm around the neck/across the back Koshi Guruma is an option.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xM9IF8TjQ48

BKR
11/25/2013 7:53pm,
So under a half-year of recreational twice/week practice? You're lucky to pull off a good fart in shiai. Stick to what your sensei are teaching you and ignore the peanut gallery here.

Good advice for sure.

If you are primarily interested in no - gi stuff, then you should focus on that, or applications of Judo that your coaches teach.

Usually, it takes a while to get good at Judo. Once you are good at it, then moving to no gi is not as difficult. Judo was designed to be learned using the jacket and pants, so you are kind of handicapped learning it with no uniform.

Nickosaurus
11/26/2013 5:17am,
I don't really want to set off a discussion into throw classification but Uchi Mata isn't a hip throw either although some variations have more hip than others. I think its always good for an individual to be thinking about their own Judo but a beginner does need the guidance of a coach/Sensei.

To the OP at the 6 month mark of Judo I about do Osoto if I had a weight advantage and my skill disadvantage wasn't too great. I spent a lot of time trying different things, but I wished I had worked working on throws from a similar grip.

Ming Loyalist
11/26/2013 9:10am,
I don't really want to set off a discussion into throw classification but Uchi Mata isn't a hip throw either although some variations have more hip than others.

i don't know what you're talking about, semantic arguments about the classification of throws based on their japanese names is the single most important aspect of judo! now let's get back to the drop seoi nage/seoi otoshi conversation!

/sarcasm