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DCS
5/04/2004 8:54am,
I'have read this essay long ago and noticed how, IMHO, martial arts/artists and fascism are someway related.


http://www.themodernword.com/eco/eco_blackshirt.html

Opinions please.

Dr. Fagbot Q. MacGillicuddy, PhD
5/04/2004 9:30am,
it's a good essay and, typically for eco, outlines ideas that are hard to pin down by using clear, direct language. and some of it (disdain of modernism, elite hierarchies, etc.) is clearly relevant to the ways some groups practice some martial arts in the u.s.a.

but the thing that mitigates these elements (again, as practiced in the u.s.) is that the nationalism -- a key component -- is undercut by the esteem practioners hold for the international origins of various arts (japan, china, korea, brazil, etc.) this necessary extra-ethnic inclusiveness likely acts as a check against fascism by removing one of its primary foundations (if not the primary foundation).

of course, this is from the standpoint of an american. i don't really have any insight into how the essay might apply to ma practiced in other countries. well, except that certain japanese xenophobic/fascist/traditionalist groups incorporate ritualistic sorts of ma practice along with typical militaristic fetishism. but i think these groups are pretty marginal.

Wounded Ronin
5/04/2004 2:02pm,
As far as fascism and MA is concerned, I have a funny story.


My dad is Japanese. Several years ago I was in Japan with my dad. We were riding a train and these three young men come on. They all have big judo sports bags.


So, I don't really bat an eye, but my dad, with his super duper Japanese sense of imperceptible social tremors says something to the effect that they are super right wing nationalist judoka who will beat me up if I stare at them since I'm a gaijin.


I have no idea whether or not that is true. But it's a funny story.

Besides, the abstract idea of getting beat up in a train car by 3 judoka is a humorous idea in and of itself, if horrible beatdowns are your cup of tea.

DCS
8/19/2004 10:13am,
Time to resuscitate this thread.

Beatdown Richie
8/19/2004 10:43am,
> ...except that certain japanese xenophobic/fascist/traditionalist
> groups incorporate ritualistic sorts of ma practice along with typical
> militaristic fetishism.
Traditionalist fraternities in Germany still have highly ritualized saber duels as part of their group identity.

Also, given the almost unlimited capability of humans to live with contradictory views, I don't think that merely practicing an Asian MA makes any Nazi skinhead moron less of a racist.

TylerDurden
8/19/2004 10:54am,
It's easy to draw comparisons to something that requires a certain amount of discipline and tradition and call it fascism. But it's just not so. You could, by the same standard, explain how being a mall security guard is the same as being a nazi. (Uniform, silly rules, over developed sense of authority, persecuting the innocent) Of course it's a dumb comparison, just showing how things can be taken to a foolish extreme in examples like this.

cyrijl
8/19/2004 3:27pm,
that is only a small piece of the article, and should not be used to ascribe fascism to MA. The piece can be found in a book called FIVE MORAL PIECES. There is more detail there and it would destroy the idea that fascism and MA are related.

However, the origins of many arts may be traced back to faschistic notions. But the modern practitioner is probably not aware of this.


my quote below is from ECO. The Role of the READER. Of course the TKD stuff has been added....

Roidie McDouchebag
8/19/2004 5:15pm,
I am a Fascist and Eco is a fucking idiot...and that's all I have to say about that.

wingchunnewbie
8/19/2004 5:27pm,
Originally posted by Beatdown Richie
I don't think that merely practicing an Asian MA makes any Nazi skinhead moron less of a racist.

From the neo-nazi stuff I've come across, I expect they would rationalise it by claiming that the roots of whatever MA they were doing were actually brought to Asia by some ancient conquering 'Aryan' group.

Storrmfront.org is full of extremely dubious 'historical' articles about how almost everything of value was invented, and almost every civilisation of note was founded, by tall blonde weightlifters with handle-bar mustaches, mullets and swastika tatoos.

These guys might not be a serious political force, but they might be onto something if they ever opened a gay bar.

Lights Out
8/19/2004 6:00pm,
Funny things about race. Ive read that the aryans originated in India, were they of pale skin and blonde hair or were they... " a little bit darker"?

After visitng that page, Im afraid that some negro may attack me using his thicker skull bone.

Gosh, some people are really ignorant.

SCO
8/19/2004 6:09pm,
Good article. The cults of the weak tend to be authoritarian.

Lights Out
8/19/2004 6:09pm,
Originally posted by I Choke You
I am a Fascist and Eco is a fucking idiot...and that's all I have to say about that.

You wanted a link between MA and fascism? Here you go!

Sun Wukong
8/19/2004 9:57pm,
Well, yeah they're related. The military and facism go hand in hand.

Martial arts by their very nature have militaristic foundations.

Roidie McDouchebag
8/19/2004 11:47pm,
Ok, I will say this, there is a link, but it has almost nothing to do with what Eco wrote.

EDIT: In fact, what Eco wrote has almost nothing to do with Fascism.

I'll put it this way, Eco has a fantasy of what Fascism is, and that article is the product of his mental masturbation on the subject.

wakinonioi
8/19/2004 11:56pm,
Originally posted by chris_ketchens
Well, yeah they're related. The military and facism go hand in hand.

.


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wingchunnewbie
8/20/2004 7:46am,
Originally posted by Lights Out
Funny things about race. Ive read that the aryans originated in India, were they of pale skin and blonde hair or were they... " a little bit darker"?


It depends who you listen to.
AFAIK, mainstream academics would say that the 'Aryans' (who they'd call 'indo-europeans' these days) were people were olive-skinned people with dark hair from central asia (simillar to modern mediterranean or central asian people) who spread into europe and the indian subcontinent and who intermarried with the people of Europe and India and spoke a language which was a predecessor of most european languages, in addition to many northern indian languages, and whose religion was shared similarities with both ancient greek, norse and celtic pantheons and some variants of hinduism.

I think some indian scholars say that the 'aryans' were indigenous to northern india. I don't know what their explanation is for the close similarities between many ancient european languages and northern india languages like Sanskrit. As far as I know, Indians aren't claiming to have founded every worthwhile civilisation that ever existed though.

Neo-nazi groups tend to go with the central asian origin but then claim that these 'Aryans' were stereotypical 'nordic' people with blonde or red hair and blue or green eyes who conquered all before them, sweeping 'inferior' civilisations out of the way and founding pretty much all the 'great' civilisations studied today from Egypt to China.

They also claim a lot of inventions were introduced to countries like China and India by their fantasy nordic-supermen even when there is clear documented evidence that such inventions were present well before the earliest date that even they claim said super-viking ancestors arrived. They ignore the advanced african civilisations like the Kushites
(who were recorded as saving ancient Egypt from invasion by marauding desert nomads and restoring its laws and traditions, serving as Pharoahs for a few dynasties) or the exquisite artwork of Benin altogether.

They also ignore the fact that the ethnic group with the highest incidence of blonde hair and blue eyes (the Finns) speak a language that isn't at all related to the 'aryan' or indo-european languages of Europe and Northern India, and that egyptian murals and ancient chinese and indian texts don't show people with blonde hair and blue eyes. They show people who look pretty much like the people who live there today.

Some ancient greek pottery shows blonde people, who were designated in contemporary writings as northern-europeans (such as the ancestors of the modern Franch and Germans) that they traded with. Most greek pottery shows people with dark hair and eyes who look pretty much like modern greeks.

Ancient history fascinates me, but it's hardly important when deciding who to hire, marry or train with. If you ask me, these neo-nazi types take their Dungeons and Dragons way too seriously.