PDA

View Full Version : Question about Oyama pic



Pages : [1] 2

RickRoss
1/14/2013 9:45pm,
Hello all


I've heard of this site and read about some of the work that has been done uncovering scam artists.. well done


I did notice that the picture for this sub forum is Oyama with a bull


Do you believe that Oyama and/or his matches against bulls were 'bullshido'?


Thanks for your discussion

patfromlogan
1/14/2013 9:53pm,
Mod will soon move this one....

Budo_Brown
1/14/2013 10:12pm,
Hello all


I've heard of this site and read about some of the work that has been done uncovering scam artists.. well done


I did notice that the picture for this sub forum is Oyama with a bull


Do you believe that Oyama and/or his matches against bulls were 'bullshido'?


Thanks for your discussion

Welcome to Bullshido. Try posting an introduction in Newbietown. As for the picture, it's legit.

battlefields
1/15/2013 12:03am,
Welcome RickRoss.

In regards to your question about the picture being "bullshido", it would be a good idea for you to know what bullshido actually means. The best way to find this out is to do a lot of reading on this site.

Bullshido was coined by this site and usually refers to fraudulent practices in the martial arts, although there are many subtleties in even this definition. As I said, best thing to do is to read a lot of information that this site holds.

The other thing, in each forum there is several threads up the top which say "READ ME: (your name)". Read them, they will give you guidelines of posting in those areas and will likely answer many questions you might have, sometimes before you even have them.

ChuckWepner
1/15/2013 12:46am,
Welcome, RickRoss, feel free to introduce yourself.

Like the boss here just said, spend some quality time with the stickies. It will make your time here much more fun for everyone.

Another good way to learn about the site & about different posters is to browse threads and especially to learn to use the search tool. If you put "Oyama" in the search box up above, you will find plenty of interesting discussion here.

BTW, you might get a sense of what "Bullshido" means (and this may be why you chose your screen name, FAIK) by thinking of it this way: if being gangsta were a legitimate martial art, Rick Ross's past claims and image would be Bullshido.

Permalost
1/15/2013 2:45am,
I assume you mean this:
http://www.blogoncherry.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/mas-oyama-bull.jpg

According to an article by karate character of note John Bluming:


The story about Oyama fighting bulls is not true. He never met a real
bull, for he never visited Spain. I also doubt that he was gored, for
he never told me about it and he used to tell me everything. Kurosaki
Kenji was there and he told me what happened. They went early in the
morning to a stock- yard in Tateyama Prefecture. Workmen prepared a fat
old ox for Oyama by hitting one of its horns with a hammer so that it
was quite loose. Oyama did not kill the ox he only knocked off the
loose horn.

Oyama showed Bill Backhus and I the 16mm "bull fighting" movie in 1959.
1 told Oyama never to show this film in Europe because it looked too
phony and everyone would laugh at him. As far as I know, nobody saw
that movie again A copy of his article can be found in this thread:

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=78935

Some folks think Bluming is full of crap, but I think he's probably telling the truth. He paints a picture of Oyama that seems more real- not just a supernatural righteous man, but a more complex guy who was both a pioneer of hard contact martial arts, while still being insecure that he wasn't as great as he could be, so he did these publicity stunts.

Oyama was one of my martial arts heroes growing up. I had done a very nice sketch of the bull fight when I was a teenager. I think he was a major pioneer in making karate a real fighting art again, but he wasn't perfect. If he did have an old ox injured before beating it with karate, I find it contemptible and hope that he had some sort of internal transformation while fighting the animal, where he felt profoundly bad and realized that beating the live ox was really beating a dead horse. But it was a different time and there's more than one version of what happened. At any rate, the whole Bluming interview is worth reading to get a different look at who Oyama was and why this spectacle came to be.

There's some old video that I believe is part of the one Bluming told him not to release:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aw6Ja1DwFnM

slamdunc
1/15/2013 11:31am,
Welcome to Bullshido. You will soon learn the terms and definitions of Bullshido, McDojo, LARP, etc.
At any rate, enjoy the show.

http://i1261.photobucket.com/albums/ii595/slamdunc1/MilitaryBanner_zpsd361578d.png

Permalost
1/15/2013 12:18pm,
"Bullshido" is bullshit martial arts- stuff that doesn't work in reality when the other guy doesn't fall on command. Anatomical fallacies are Bullshido (for example, striking the nasal bone into the brain with a palm strike as a lethal technique, or no touch knockouts using the body's energy fields). Bullshido doesn't necessarily make a lot of money, but it often does because it promises fighting prowess without really fighting for it.

"Mcdojo" is a martial arts venture that is first and foremost a money making endeavor. This ususally involves some bullshido because its easier to make money in the martial arts by pandering to the masses who want to feel like a badass without really having to fight. However, a mcdojo doesn't necessarily teach bullshido. A mcdojo could have quality teachers that teach good material; its just that its a commercial enterprise.

Oyama was neither of these things. He was a pioneer in saying that karate was about fighting, and we should be sparring hard or our karate will fail us in a fight. He started a style that was hard, continuous, and incorporated outside influences like muay thai and boxing. Kyokushin fighters continue to do well today. This hard sparring karate endeavor wasn't the path to great wealth either- Oyama probably could have lived comfortably running a mcdojo in Tokyo or something that catered to the elite, but chose a different life.

Was fighting the bull bullshido? I dunno, because I don't know the claims that he made about it (but I doubt it was "come one come all and see a karate master fight an old fat ox with loosened horns"). Its such a weird historical side note that I don't even know where to place it on the realm of fighting. What I do know, is that Oyama inspired the awesome Sonny Chiba movies Karate Bullfighter and Karate Bearfighter (!). Both are worth watching on a lazy day if you're into karate.

W. Rabbit
1/15/2013 12:34pm,
Welcome to Bullshido.

People wrestle bulls all the time TODAY, especially in Texas.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVO4-qIHLfc

"Dodgeball" has this homage to Mas Oyama by the way. No one I've seen this movie with gets the joke.

http://i.imgur.com/j0Yml.jpg

Permalost
1/15/2013 12:49pm,
"Dodgeball" has this homage to Mas Oyama by the way. No one I've seen this movie with gets the joke.

http://i.imgur.com/j0Yml.jpg
I don't think that's an Oyama reference. its just him taking the bull by the horns. Its a metaphor. But it actually happened though.

ChuckWepner
1/15/2013 5:00pm,
"Dodgeball" has this homage to Mas Oyama by the way. No one I've seen this movie with gets the joke.

Wow. No one else realizes that's an Oyama reference, huh? I guess you are just too smart for your friends to hang out with, Rabbit.

Or, maybe it's because they have read a book at some point and know about the Greek myth of the 12 Labors of Hercules (Herakles / Heracles is the Greek version, Hercules the better known Latin form of the name from Roman mythology). The 7th Labor was taming the Bull of Crete, and the pose Stiller is in here matches the traditional depiction of Hercules grabbing the bull by the horns in the course of doing so. Notice the build he is given in the painting.

Some of the many pieces of artwork representing this, which were obviously the inspiration for "White Goodman's" portrait:

14354

14355

14356

14357

14358

Permalost
1/15/2013 5:36pm,
On a vaguely related note, Stiller's portrait with the bull totally looks like it was painted by Boris Vallejo, who would be the perfect artist to paint a portrait for a huge-ego'd guy who wanted a portrait of his bulging muscles.

http://www.artgalleryartist.com/Boris_Vallejo-Gallery-Art/images/boris_vallejo_102.jpg

W. Rabbit
1/15/2013 10:05pm,
Wow. No one else realizes that's an Oyama reference, huh? I guess you are just too smart for your friends to hang out with, Rabbit.


Straw man pedantry. You need to work on that Chuck.

I also believe your sarcasm meter is broken. Sarcasm should drip, not burble as it does off your own tongue.

Try being a little more subtle.



Some of the many pieces of artwork representing this, which were obviously the inspiration for "White Goodman's" portrait:


You can't prove any of this, correct? You've posted a lot of pictures but then so can I.

http://i.imgur.com/ECi6h.jpg

W. Rabbit
1/15/2013 10:19pm,
On a vaguely related note, Stiller's portrait with the bull totally looks like it was painted by Boris Vallejo, who would be the perfect artist to paint a portrait for a huge-ego'd guy who wanted a portrait of his bulging muscles.


It is, in fact, a 1987 Boris Vallejo painting known as "Taurus, the Bull".

According to what I've read so far, the bull in the painting is the astrological Taurus, which would make it NOT the same as the Cretan Bull of Hercules' Labours.

Sorry Chuck...see what happens when pedantry smacks its cock in your face?

http://www.icollector.com/Boris-Vallejo-Taurus-the-Bull-Fantasy-Zodiac_i7452580

http://i.imgur.com/mz7Xu.jpg

ChuckWepner
1/15/2013 11:06pm,
It is, in fact, a 1987 Boris Vallejo painting known as "Taurus, the Bull".

According to what I've read so far, the bull in the painting is the astrological Taurus, which would make it NOT the same as the Cretan Bull of Hercules' Labours.

Sorry Chuck...see what happens when pedantry smacks its cock in your face?



Your attempt to claim a Strawman in a place where there was no argument isn't a good start. You don't know what the Strawman fallacy is. Don't copy IiF if you don't know what his big boy words mean.

I didn't claim that it *is* the Cretan bull and Hercules. I claimed that the classical images of Hercules and the Cretan bull, rather than Oyama, are "obviously the inspiration" for the painting.

The fact that you combined arrogance and ignorance with such panache to begin with was delightful enough. To see you trying to save face by pretending that I claimed that it *is a painting of the (mythical) Cretan bull,* so that if the mythical bull is called Taurus you have shown me up is really funny.

It isn't pedantry to point out the obvious classical reference of this painting. Any educated artist has seen many images of Hercules and the Bull, so it is a reasonable inference that it is the source here. There is no reason whatever to think the same of Oyama and his Ox.

Are you holding out for the bull being Taurus and the heavily muscled youth being inspired by Oyama?

It's cute when you try to engage in rational discourse, but since you claim that you aren't trying to be funny when you post, you need somebody with better reasoning skills to check over your work before it goes up.

ChuckWepner
1/16/2013 3:18am,
Just to make it even more obvious that Vallejo was likely inspired by Hercules and the Cretan Bull (especially rather than by Oyama and the Tatayama Ox), here is a painting that he completed in 1988 ("Taurus" was painted in 1987). It is entitled "Hercules and Cerberus" and is a painting of the Twelfth Labor of Hercules.

It's also worth keeping in mind that the story of Taurus is of Zeus taking the form of a white bull, luring Europa to him with his beauty, and then kidnapping and ravishing her. Zeus took the form of Taurus again and fathered the Minotaur with the wife of King Minos of Crete. I don't recall any youth or hero wrestling Taurus (Zeus in white bull form), but I am prepared to learn another Greek myth about Taurus if there is one.

In any event, Vallejo was definitely aware of, and based at least one painting on, the Labors of Hercules by 1988. So, this supports the probable conclusion that "Taurus" was influenced by the many artistic representations of the 7th Labor that "Taurus" resembles.

14361

http://vallejo.ural.net/1988/