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Hollykate
10/07/2012 12:01pm,
Hello

I have a quick question about levals of force required for dealing with a situation.

I know for example the police have levals of force that they adhere to one example of this is say they are retraining someone who is resisting usually they will tackle the person to the floor and say "stop resisiting" if that doesnt work they would threaten the pepper spray to be used and if then the person didnt stop struggling they would spray.

a clear guideline of upping the leval of force untill compliance is reached.

BUT what happens if you dont have any pepper spray or a baton how do you respond to somnething like your tackling an assailant to the ground and you put them in a non dangerous holddown from judo and the guy decides to try to gouge your eyes and mouth, they are clearly trying to rip your eye from its socket.

How do you respond?

slamdunc
10/07/2012 12:31pm,
I have a quick question about levals of force required for dealing with a situation.The Use of Force Continuum is what you are referring to.

Levels of Resistance vs Levels of Control.

Psychological Intimidation = Officer Presence
Verbal Non-compliance = Verbal Direction
Passive Resistance = Soft Empty-Hand
Defensive Resistance = Hard Empty-Hand
Active Aggression = Intermediate Weapons
Deadly Force Assault = Deadly Force

To answer your question, you use what you have at hand. If it goes from verbal non-compliance to active aggression and you do not have intermediate weapons (pepper-spray, baton, or Taser), you can escalate to deadly force if you can articulate how you were in fear for your life or receiving great bodily-harm.

Although use of force models by US agencies vary somewhat, the standard for using deadly-force is always the same. If someone is trying to gouge your eyes out, you are in danger of having great bodily-harm done to you.

http://militarysignatures.com/signatures/member3257.png (http://militarysignatures.com)

Eddie Hardon
10/07/2012 2:11pm,
In the UK (and you are in the UK, are you not?) it's the concept of Reasonable Force to which you must adhere. Now, define "Reasonable Force"....that's the nub of it.

If you have someone under restraint, then putting fingers in their eye(s) will likely fail in Court. With a Judo skillset, you could likely put them to sleep; problem solved.

In the UK, pepper spray is illegal and you'll have trouble explaining away the baton.

Tell the Police that you were "in fear for my Life" and keep repeating it.

Hollykate
10/07/2012 3:28pm,
I see, thanks guys!
So would an acceptable use of force be bite down on the assailants fingers while they are in your mouth and elbow the face?.

thrutch
10/07/2012 3:42pm,
Is this a hypothetical situation, or are you experiencing this right now?

I anyone puts anything in your mouth I think you'd be well within your rights to bite down on it.

slamdunc
10/07/2012 3:56pm,
I anyone puts anything in your mouth I think you'd be well within your rights to bite down on it.Yes, it is well within your personal space; the space that you have every right to defend. If you are in that close of quarters with someone who is trying to harm you, there are also other factors that apply. The age, size, and skill factors all come into play here as well. Lots of variables, little time to make a decision in the heat of battle.

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goodlun
10/07/2012 4:03pm,
The thing to know here is there are no hard and fast rules. The law is full of the statement reasonable. It expects you to act well reasonably to the situation.

If its reasonable for you to bite, eye gouge, crotch kick, choke, arm bar, or what and you can successfully argue the point that it was reasonable then you are fine.
If not your fucked.

jnp
10/07/2012 11:15pm,
Hello

I have a quick question about levals of force required for dealing with a situation.

I know for example the police have levals of force that they adhere to one example of this is say they are retraining someone who is resisting usually they will tackle the person to the floor and say "stop resisiting" if that doesnt work they would threaten the pepper spray to be used and if then the person didnt stop struggling they would spray.

a clear guideline of upping the leval of force untill compliance is reached.

BUT what happens if you dont have any pepper spray or a baton how do you respond to somnething like your tackling an assailant to the ground and you put them in a non dangerous holddown from judo and the guy decides to try to gouge your eyes and mouth, they are clearly trying to rip your eye from its socket.

How do you respond?
Get out of the Armory troll.

slamdunc
10/08/2012 2:17am,
Get out of the Armory troll.I fall for it every time. I was seriously on track and got blind-sided. If it isn't a troll job, goodlun used the word reasonable. Reasonable objectivity is the standard. What would a normal person with the same level of training and experience do under similar circumstances.

http://militarysignatures.com/signatures/member3257.png (http://militarysignatures.com)

Hollykate
10/08/2012 4:06pm,
I'm not a troll, this is a real question why is everyone all up in my ****?

Tom .C
10/08/2012 4:09pm,
I'm not a troll, this is a real question why is everyone all up in my ****?

our eyes are all sore

doofaloofa
10/08/2012 4:18pm,
@Hollykate

I think the problem is the forum you posted your question in

If in doubt YMAS

In answer to your OP, if I had someone in a hold down and they attempted to eyegouge/fish hook me I would attempt a Byker kiss

Permalost
10/08/2012 4:18pm,
Trolling aside, I'm kinda surprised that nobody's answered "How do counter eye gouge after tackling?" with "armbar".

It is Fake
10/08/2012 4:46pm,
I'm not a troll, this is a real question why is everyone all up in my ****?
You need to read your post and thread history.

Mr. Machette
10/08/2012 4:50pm,
Although use of force models by US agencies vary somewhat, the standard for using deadly-force is always the same. If someone is trying to gouge your eyes out, you are in danger of having great bodily-harm done to you.

^^^^^^^^^
Here's op's answer.

Don't eye gouge a cop. They will just kill you.

RynoGreene
10/09/2012 6:18pm,
Transition to side control. Cross face with shoulder pressure to his jaw, turning his head to avoid the bite. Control far side arm with a one-handed ude garame/americana arm hold for security. He can't do ****. And if he does slip the arm hold and continue to try to gouge, apply the lock, and talk him down. "If you keep trying to bite me and gouge my eyes, I will break your arm." Once he's been warned, snap away if he keeps it up.

Or when he reaches up to gouge your eyes, pass the arm, slide head down and slip over to arm triangle him. Put him to sleep, then be sure to toss his shoes somewhere so that he can't easily give chase when he wakes up.