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gregaquaman
10/01/2012 7:54pm,
Learned this over the weekend and still only half get it. But the fun of a discussion of a MMA version of the shoulder throw was too good to miss.

This was shown to me by Rob Guffrida and he really does know his buisness when it comes to grappling.

So the set up is from the clinch. The underhook crossed the body and grabs the arm and sets up for the throw. As far as I know this is pretty normal shoulder set up.

But here you don't go 180 degrees and put the hips in. You rotate further to 720 the hips are well past theirs and you drop to your knees. Other guy goes straight over the top of the shoulder.

A failed attempt does not give up the back as much. I think it was straight for the single leg if you screw it up.

I need to get some video. But everybody who will not make a mockery of it is away at the moment.

gregaquaman
10/01/2012 8:00pm,
significantly more sidways than this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQQh8U6Nl_8&feature=related

The Cap
10/01/2012 8:59pm,
In doing a 720 turn you spin around in a full circle twice and end up facing the direction you started in. Sounds more like a lucha libre shoulder throw to me.

Did you mean 270? If so I have a good idea of what that looks like and I think I have a video of that around here somewhere. I'll link when I find it.

*Edit: here's what I've got:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4eyThyIGoI

gregaquaman
10/01/2012 10:48pm,
Yes bang on.

The only difference is that we were told to scramble for underhook and side mount.

(I knew it would exist somewhere)

PointyShinyBurn
10/02/2012 5:13am,
Might have been more of an arm spin, from your initial description:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAtsaNm2p6g

The Cap
10/02/2012 5:36am,
Whether the arm is wrapped around the shoulders or the neck, once your hips are past your opponents' you need to drop to provide momentum for the toss, which is not my favourite thing. There's just nothing like landing a throw and turning that standing advantage into a Rick Hawn style finish.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zg8O9dyB5io

gregaquaman
10/02/2012 7:17am,
but it does protect yourself from having your back taken. See for me this is why I have pretty much gone off the shoulder throw. The reward is there but the risk is there too.

Here less risk

Hedgehogey
10/02/2012 7:07pm,
If I had a quarter for every time I heard someone say that you shouldn't do drop seoi nage because it risks getting your back taken, I could buy one mediocre handjob or about three bad ones.

While yeah, you can get your back taken if you follow the IPPON JUDO FOLLOW THROUGH WARRIOR SPIRIT RARRRGH mentality, if you're actually smart with your koshi waza and have an effective hikite and tsurite the benefits far outweigh the risks.

The real danger of drop seoinage isn't on the mat, it's the potential effects on your knees. I spent weeks on crutches this spring due to the effects of constant drop knee attacks.

gregaquaman
10/02/2012 8:32pm,
Yeah that is my struggle at the moment is the whole pysicality of it. As there are limits to the amount of diving on to the mat I can do.

But I need a Judo throw of some sort to take advantage of when space between the hips is created.

What I am going to go for is one of the ones where I trip them over my leg. But was pretty bog standard and less intersting to talk about than MMA variations on judo stuff.

The Cap
10/04/2012 2:26pm,
Knee-pads. Maybe spray-paint them or get them cut from your favourite suit cloth for everyday use. Or just don't drop.

When you get concerned about the risk that presents to your back, remember that throws are as situational as any other move. You w(c)ouldn't use a butterfly sweep from mount, just like you wouldn't do standing seoi on an opponent who insists on squatting and falling back. Feel him and throw him in the direction he's going. If you're trying the throw and can feel he isn't coming forward you reverse into an inside leg trip. Or you even feed him some shoulder throw faints until he reacts backwards continuously and drop him with the sweep.

Arskanator
10/05/2012 11:51am,
Yeah, my MMA coach taught me that one too! The one that you're talking about, that is. With the exception that we used to trap the other guy's right arm in to the armpit of our left, then wrap our right arm around the guy's neck and then drop/jump to the side of the guy. Feels like your head is gonna pop off like the cork of a champagne bottle.

Pakeha
10/08/2012 1:14am,
I was taught what that sounds like by John Will, and he specifcaly said it was a wrestling arm spin not the judo style throw when he taught us. I find it great for ending up in really strong position on the ground as well as people (so far) not really expecting it as a set up.

The Cap
10/08/2012 4:15pm,
I was taught what that sounds like by John Will, and he specifcaly said it was a wrestling arm spin not the judo style throw when he taught us. I find it great for ending up in really strong position on the ground as well as people (so far) not really expecting it as a set up.

The difference between an over rotated shoulder throw and an arm spin is whether your opponent's arm is wrapped around your shoulders or your neck. You can see a great example of an arm spin done here during the wrestling worlds:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UkSs8zzKvY

That would still be taught in judo (as Yoko Wakare). While neither an over rotated shoulder throw nor an arm spin have a great risk of sacrificing the back, the placement of the opponent's arm can change the nature of the throw significantly. Unlike an arm spin, an over rotated shoulder throw can be executed without a drop (if you're willing to sacrifice the longevity of your lower back muscles, in my experience).