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OldShintaro
5/28/2012 3:16pm,
First I am not anybody special, I am just tired of the way things are now with Bujinkan. I have been floating around Bujinkan since 1989 and have seen Bujinkan turn to **** over that time.

1/ The way that rank is given away in Japan to westerners. It may work for Japanese, that style of promotion, but it rarely works for westerners. If I was good enough to have my own Dojo, and I'm not, people going to Japan and coming back with *magic* ranks would NOT be allowed to show it in my Dojo, until their peer Black belts thought it appropriate.

2/ The punch from 3 bloody feet away. Sheesh!!, get a grip, yes learn the technique using long stances and a slow pace, but then make it real. It used to be long stance's to the get rhythm and timing then short stance to make it real. If you cannot reach you opponents nose YOUR TOO BLOODY FAR AWAY!

3/ Promoting people to Shodan in 13 months, OMG. Whoever does that should be ashamed of themselves. They have just de-valued the rank and made everyone else look like fools. If you did that in another MA you would get the **** kicked out of you then booted out the front door of the Dojo. In my view Shodan is the start after the apprenticeship. Imagine if a builder said, "Yep your right to go kid and build houses" after going from not knowing anything to 13 months of experience.

4/ What's up with the black gi? Hatsumi learnt in a white gi, so did people in history. Get real and start wearing white gi's. Guess what, it doesn't make you a Ninja wearing a black gi.

5/ Ok, there are some Ryu within Togakure Ryu that have been proved as real. So if the rest are real, then allow people to authenticate the scrolls and translate them. It is not Ninjery to hide them, it makes people think that it is all BS.

6/ Also if Kumogakure is a concept, cool, then release the concept. Not all Shinobi scrolls are about the physical side. From what I am told, and I don't know if is true, but apparently Hatsumi owns the Iga museum. They have a heap of old scrolls. RELEASE THEM!!! So that people can translate them.

I do have some positive things to say though, some Bujinkan schools have a curriculum for getting to Shodan so that people are educated along the way with technique / skill evaluation at each level. So it takes about 3.5 years to Shodan. More realistic, than 13 months Oh My F%*$*n God!

Thanks for tolerating my rant

It is Fake
5/28/2012 3:23pm,
Hello and once again, welcome to bullshido.

This is your second thread that has been started the INVESTIGATIVE forum. Here are the rules and conduct for posting in this area:
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=57547

Neither of your threads fit the criteria for this forum.

The second issue is we do not allow foul language in the titles.

The third and final issues is use the search function for Bujinkan. Bullshido search suck, but not for _ing _un, aikido, and Booj=Bujinkan.

Thanks.

OldShintaro
5/28/2012 3:25pm,
Thanks for the move. My apologies for posting in the wrong area.

OldShintaro
5/28/2012 3:59pm,
Also where is the Ninjutsu? As far I can see, Bujinkan is teaching a Martial Art. I have very rarely, if not at all, seen anything from the Shoninki being taught. The word Ninjutsu should not be used. Over time I have seen Bo Shuriken, a Samurai skill, and Hojojutsu...maybe Ninjutsu, but I would still say that it is a samurai skill.

drizzt777
5/28/2012 4:58pm,
Hi. I left the Buj because of many of your very rants. I had been crosstraining forever and decided grappling and FMA were much more inclined to my tastes. The biggest thing is thatthe Buj is and has been losing credibility due to less than lackluster technique outside of Japan...the awarding of ranks to people who have less than lackluster technical ability...the argument that their sparring is too deadly (wth) and finally q lack of any real curriculum. Its sad because the truly good ones in the art are overshadowed by the crappiest ones (who outnumber the good ones 78-1.)

I was a member for nearly 16 years. Enough was enough.

OldShintaro
5/28/2012 6:24pm,
It is unfortunate that you never saw it how it was before the BS set in. It was, in my view, a really good thing.

Further, I am not against re-creation. So learning old stuff from scrolls in my view is good and I am interested in that. I like that historical stuff. For example learning to pick the old locks from 1500's Japan. Useless today but insteresting from a historical position.
The other things people need to remember is that if you do adapt some of the old stuff to a modern context, is that you might be classed as a terrorist.

There are some seriously good people here, but, because their training is too confrontational not many attend. People these days don't want to get hit and get bruises, yet they want to know how to fight! Its like thinking you can drive a car by reading a book.

If you don't know what Ninjutsu is then have a look at Antony Cummins books:
Shoninki:
http://www.amazon.com/True-Path-Ninja-Definitive-Translation/dp/4805311142/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1338246937&sr=8-2

Ninpiden:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Ninpiden-Traditions-Unknown-Scroll/dp/1604818301/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1338246937&sr=8-7

If you disagree with the translation fine, read the classical Japanese version listed below for your self and provide an argument. Here is the original Classical Japanese (NOT modern Japanese) versions:
Shoninki:
http://www.amazon.com/Shoninki-Ninja-Scroll-Original-Japanese/dp/1604818212/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1338246937&sr=8-3
Ninpiden:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Ninpiden-Scroll-Original-Japanese/dp/1604818409/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1338246937&sr=8-9

If you don't like him, fine, I've seen him roasted here. But look past him to see what the Japanese people were doing in the past that they classed as Ninjutsu.

BTW I CANNOT read classical Japanese, my, modern Japanese is at a intermediate level.

BJMills
5/28/2012 6:25pm,
One thing that makes this kind of criticism difficult in my mind is that the 'good stuff' i.e. the stuff demonstrated by Hatsumi himself seems so bizarre, impractical, and dependent on compliant opponents that the 'bad stuff' hardly seems much worse.

OldShintaro
5/28/2012 6:36pm,
BJMills,

I have never been to Japan or personally seen Hatsumi, so I don't know if stuff is taken out of context.
I have never really "got" his teaching style when watching him on DVD. But that is probably due to my own inadequacies.

Do you have an example?

BJMills
5/28/2012 7:14pm,
I'm sure if I posted this on MAP or Martial Talk I'd be crucified for not understanding the 'subtlety' of Hatsumi's movements or some crap like that but...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEYLxHSZfUs&feature=player_embedded

What part of these two old men flopping around looks remotely effective? Really, honestly and objectively how well do you see this going if someone is not falling down for you?

The thing I love the most is the slow motion replays. Like it's not unbelievable and silly enough in real time we get to see his opponent knocking himself down in slow motion.

And in case you think age is the problem here's another one...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Nhv4x5xdHSQ

I didn't watch past the first minute or two but really if catching a punch and throwing your opponent with your chin isn't the height of larping I'm not sure what is.

I honestly don't know if you've ever done any full contact sparring or not but if so can you honestly see anything in either of these videos, any single movement being performed by the Soke himself, possibly working with a non-compliant opponent?

Actually I'm really going about this th wrong way...

There's a mountain of crap out there but I'd love to see a video of Hatsumi doing something that looked plausible.

Then again I'd love to find a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow too.

OldShintaro
5/28/2012 7:34pm,
Sorry BJMills but embeded is not working for me at the moment. Can you just post the URL please.

EDIT: Don't worry, I just changed over to Chrome.

OldShintaro
5/28/2012 7:56pm,
BJMills,
LOL, You crack me up mate.

Yea, most of the good instructors show the long version, usually 3 times. Then they show the real version (about 80 - 90% pace). And guess what, they do screw up every now and then, getting a punch or kick that contacts. I know, I have punched the instructor before, not the most popular move, but he **** happens, people have off days. Now they understand I am not going pull a punch when they say 80%. Mind you If I contact, I expect a punch in return in a later technique, but who gives a ****. All part of the learning cycle.

Favourite saying: Drink a glass of concrete and harden the F&%$ up!

But I totally agree the video looks like total BS.

I guess I am not in the "Inner circle" to understand the 'subtlety'. Who cares!

I suppose the way that I would suggest to look at those videos though, is get the basic idea of the technique, then shorten it up. With the training partner not telegraphing the crap out of his kick or punch.

BJMills
5/28/2012 8:40pm,
The basic idea of what?

How to catch a punch between your chin and shoulder? There is no reasonable way of pulling that off without a totally compliant opponent.

There's nothing in either of those videos that applies to a non compliant attacker. Nothing, there is nothing to refine.

Here's another video, but this time about Judo:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zL6zh3EWsNA&list=PL95216C8B8E6B2544&index=4&feature=plpp_video

If you go to about the three minute mark he talks about O Soto Gari. The reason I bring it up is I think I saw a similar throw in one of those ninja vids.

Anyway, here is a Judka explaining some of the subtleties of O Soto Gari on a compliant opponent. He is moving very slowly and talking as he makes each move. I personally happen to think its a great video, but I have only been into Judo for a year or so, so mabye others with more experience won't get as much from it. Whatever.

Point is, the technique he is walking through and demonstrating is 100% exactly how it is pulled off against resisiting opponents in competition. There's no magic 'refining' to be done where someone shows you a little bit of bullshit and you somehow ingest the concept then come out with something that will actually work.

That idea only exists in compliant martial art training. Not in any other sport, not in the use of firearms, not in rock climbing, diving, kyaking, not in anything where you actually have to perform well to succeed.

I saw you have a thread in newbietown where you mention you did some sparring. Did you stand in your ichimonji no kame? Did you block puches with jodan uke and apply a standing lock? Did you spar and actually do anything that resembles anything that is taught as ninjutus, or ninpo taijutsu or budo taijutsu or whatever they are calling it now?

My whole point to all this is- from an outisider's perspective- you're bitching about the quality of the booj when in fact even if everyone in that organization executed their 'battlefield tested' (love that line) techniques perfecty, they would still get their asses kicked by anyone with any skill and plenty of people without any skill at all.

There are a lot of sucky people in the booj becuase sucky people tend to gravitate towards compliant martial arts. People who want to test their skills against others, be it friendly sparring or competition, don't tend to stick around in those types of environments.

drizzt777
5/28/2012 8:42pm,
Old Shintaro - I was in the org as I stated for nearly 16 years. I was around for a good bit of the BS. Its why I left. I am not anti-Buj....I am against non working impractical things. Also the fact some of the ryu are in wuestion leaves a bad taste in my mouth. The biggest kicker is that because I wanted to crosstrain I was constantly scolded and talked down to. I am a grown man. I will not cowtow to other people just because they disagree with me.

Btw BJMills- I agree. Battlefield tested is a funny line :)

Here is the thing. I do Jujutsu and Judo because you HAVE to do it right or it doesn't work. Good training equals resistance to ensure you can do it under pressure. If sparring on some level is not involved and your excusei is its too deadly well....you know the argument.

OldShintaro
5/28/2012 8:53pm,
drizzt777,
Yep, I have never understood that either when people have told me.
Of course the other thing is to just do the other martial art and not tell them at Bujinkan, if you wanted avoid the conflict.
Who gives a "Flying rats ass" what other martial art people do. I *think* the Japanese will generally do at least 2 MA at any one time anyway.

The only problem that I could think of to watch out for, is trying to separate the 2 MA in your head.
Mind you if upon sign up you agreed on paper that you would only do their particular MA then you would probably have to adhere to that. But I don't know anyone that does that.

drizzt777
5/28/2012 9:46pm,
I don't have to really keep anything separated as what I do is all closely related (stick stuff carries to empty hand pretty well) and it was never a time in those 16 years I was not cross training. Thing with the Buj is that I am never goibg back. It may work or may not. Outside of Japan though few of the guys are worth training with. Just my opinion. On side note my friend I am glad to see people like you coming forth to state what you see as wrong. Its very good to know many of us were not wrong.

OldShintaro
5/28/2012 10:12pm,
BJMills,

I totally agree, catch a punch with your chin, yea right, what drugs is he on.
Please don't be focused on the bullshit. There are plenty of techniques that work well.
The sparring that I did I was always in a slightly wider stance than natural with my left protecting my face and my right protecting the right side of my head. With blocking I used whatever part of my arm that stopped the punch. I hope that you don't think that in a fight, that looks like what you train in the Dojo.
"Battle field tested" To be honest I think I only heard that term in the mid to late 90's. But isn't every MA "Battle field tested" because only the people that survived the battle came home to pass on knowledge?
You know the way that it is taught at the moment, I am not surprised that think , what you think.

And despite that you think people don't stick around, some people still have faith that things will change. There are plenty of really good people in Bujinkan, it is just that their style is too confrontational for the typical wannabe complaining fairy Ninjer.