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YeongJin
4/27/2012 12:01pm,
I have read a great many of the posts on this thread. Some very intelligent and some seem quite foolish. So, I figured I would add my two cents worth. Some will most likely agree others will say I am full of ****. Either way I don't really care. First I have over 25 years of experience. During that time I have trained in several different martial arts both traditional arts that many people say suck and some of the arts like BJJ and Muay Thai which some of those same people think are the only martial arts that are worth learning. My primary style is Hapkido! I want to bring up a few things:

1) When peoplse say that the only way to know if your Hapkido works is to enter a grappling tournament or a kickboxing or full contact match they are comaping apples to oranges. THESE ARE SPORT COMPETITIONS! I would agree that Hapkido training would not make you a great grappler or kickboxer. That does not mean it doesn't work! In a real world environment "self defense situation" Hapkido will work. I know this because I have used my Hapkido as a bouncer so don't go attacking me asking how I know. I have also taugh many law eforcement officers and had them come back to me with stories of how they used some of the Hapkido techniques they had learned.

2) Hapkido is not the answer for everything or everybody. If you are a MMA competitor then you should not spend the majority of your time training in Hapkido. It simply is not designed for that.

3) If all you do is practice your Hapkido from wrist grabs then your Hapkido needs to be updated. (Not the mainstream traditionalists view I'm sure)

4) Not all techniques work perfectly all the time. No technique from any art will.

5) The joint locks of Hapkido will work but have to be put in the correct context. I will explain this in greater detail if anyone asks about it.

Anyway, enough of this for now. Time to go do some real training! I'm sure I will get the chance to continue this discussion later!

TNMP
4/27/2012 12:37pm,
got out the checklist, no space left to put any new marks

Permalost
4/27/2012 12:59pm,
First I have over 25 years of experience. During that time I have trained in several different martial arts both traditional arts that many people say suck and some of the arts like BJJ and Muay Thai which some of those same people think are the only martial arts that are worth learning.
You're missing the part where the stereotypical TMA guys go on about how their art is superior than BJJ/muay thai/MMA, on both practical and philosophical grounds. Surely you've seen this if you've trained for 25 years. Its as valid as the complaint that MMA/BJJ people say that other arts don't work.


1) When peoplse say that the only way to know if your Hapkido works is to enter a grappling tournament or a kickboxing or full contact match they are comaping apples to oranges. THESE ARE SPORT COMPETITIONS! I would agree that Hapkido training would not make you a great grappler or kickboxer. That does not mean it doesn't work! In a real world environment "self defense situation" Hapkido will work. I know this because I have used my Hapkido as a bouncer so don't go attacking me asking how I know. I have also taugh many law eforcement officers and had them come back to me with stories of how they used some of the Hapkido techniques they had learned.
Counterpoint: if you can't make your hapkido work in a controlled environment, you shouldn't be too confident about it in an uncontrolled one. The context that you described (bouncer and law enforcement) aren't really allowed to do anything that they couldn't do in a MMA fight (security guards can't go around punching throats and poking eyes). If they were to escalate the level of force past what one might do in MMA, they'd go to their weapons, not their hapkido.


2) Hapkido is not the answer for everything or everybody. If you are a MMA competitor then you should not spend the majority of your time training in Hapkido. It simply is not designed for that.
Who is hapkido for?


3) If all you do is practice your Hapkido from wrist grabs then your Hapkido needs to be updated. (Not the mainstream traditionalists view I'm sure)
Are you saying that mainstream traditionalist hapkido guys only practice hapkido against wrist grabs?


4) Not all techniques work perfectly all the time. No technique from any art will.
Yes, but some have a higher percentage of working than others. Many hapkido techniques are low-percentage against real people.


5) The joint locks of Hapkido will work but have to be put in the correct context. I will explain this in greater detail if anyone asks about it.
You can if you want to, but I'm pretty sure nobody said that joint locks don't work at all.

YeongJin
4/27/2012 2:38pm,
I agree that that are a lot of TMA people who will try and tell you why their art is superior to every other art. I am not one of those guys. I get sick of hearing things from the TMA guys like this too.

As far as your counterpoint concerning bouncers, and law enforcement officers goes: There are plenty of times when the situation would not allow them to use most of the techniques common in MMA. There are also times when they are at a high enough use of force level that would alow them to do pretty much anything including their firearm. Please remember I am not saying that other martial arts styles don't have any value. I am simply saying that if a person studies hapkido diligently then it will work for self defense.

I should also note that the way I practice and teach hapkido has been modified because of my experience in the other arts I have studied. I found some of the training methods out dated. Learning so many techniques from someone grabbing your wrist. In my experience many Hapkido practitioners do spend a lot of time on wrist grab defenses which I don't really see as being the most efficient way to train. Ofcourse that's not all that the mainstream traditional guys do but they certainly do alot of it.

I would like to know your justification for saying that many hapkido techiques are low percentage against "real people" which techniques are you refering to? This is a hard assumption to make because hapkido varies greatly from one instructor to the next. It is and always has been kind of an eclectic art. I'm sure there are techniques that are being taught by instructors that would not work that well in the real world and I'm sure they are being taught by people calling themselves "hapkido instructors". This is the problem with hapkido or any other art. I have seen people teaching hapkido that does not resemble the hapkido that I know and teach hardly at all. Yet it is labeled as hapkido. So if someone sees that and it sucks then that is what they now consider to be hapkido.

Petter
4/27/2012 3:37pm,
1) When peoplse say that the only way to know if your Hapkido works is to enter a grappling tournament or a kickboxing or full contact match they are comaping apples to oranges. THESE ARE SPORT COMPETITIONS! I would agree that Hapkido training would not make you a great grappler or kickboxer. That does not mean it doesn't work! In a real world environment "self defense situation" Hapkido will work. I know this because I have used my Hapkido as a bouncer so don't go attacking me asking how I know.
Supposing for the sake of argument that we accept at face value your claim to having used it in real fights, there are two problems with this. One is that effectiveness (barring preposterous conjuring tricks as seen in pressure-point/no-touch knockouts) is relative, not absolute. The question is not whether Hapkido works at all so much as whether it is good enough to be a valid alternative to, say, judo or BJJ. The fact that you managed to use hapkido techniques to subdue some opponents tell us nothing about how good it is in comparison to anything else. Maybe you'd be twice as good, and get there in half the training time, doing judo. If so, I think we're justified in considering judo training superior.

The second problem is that these isolated anecdotes of "I subdued that guy" or "this guy I know defended himself", apart from being unverifiable, are anecdotes bereft of context, not data. It could mean that hapkido is fantastic, but we also have to consider possibilities like


You were only able to do it because you're naturally tough and strong, or talented at fighting, and are able to fight in spite of inferior training; you might have been able to spin-kick them into oblivion training in nothing but ballet.
You only faced easy opponents: drunk, incompetent, lacking in intent (maybe they struggled with the bouncers, but didn't really want to escalate, when what they really wanted was to beat the **** out of some other guy).
We have access only to anecdotes with a strong confirmation bias: suppose you have access to ten success stories; how many failures would go along with those if we could somehow generate a statistically significant and representative sample?
…And so on.

When judging the effectiveness of combat sport oriented arts, in contexts such as MMA, these factors are mitigated. Sample sizes are larger, and exceptional individuals will rise to the top regardless of style background. Everyone is in shape and no one is drunk. We can record both wins and losses. Thus, though the odd exception proves very little (e.g. Machida as the only high-profile Shotokan stylist), general trends are significant (clearly wrestling, BJJ, and Muay Thai are very successful styles). This tells us something meaningful. It's true that MMA is a simulation of free combat, and not equivalent to a life-or-death fight, but it's the best simulation that gives us enough evidence to draw any solid conclusions. Thus we're inclined to think that a style that [I]fails to show its effectiveness in the only arena where we can establish quality is probably lacking therein.

I also find it curious how often people drag out the bouncer card -- "I'm a bouncer, therefore I am an authority on fighting!" I thought the point of a good bouncer was to avoid physical altercations as far as possible, using people skills; and if physical force became the unfortunate necessity, use it minimally and with the advantage of numbers (and often sheer bulk). (Of course, if someone is intimidated, outnumbered, or just physically inferior, it is probably much easier to control him via pain compliance, wristlocks &c., than it would ever be to use them to win a fight.)

YeongJin
4/27/2012 4:05pm,
Again I am not attacking any art. I have studied Judo and BJJ. And I have gained knowledge from that trainig. What I have found is that all "jujutsu" based arts have a lot in common yet at the same time have differenses. Before anyone, including myself can point out flaws in any art we must first know enough about that art to make such claims. And what makes a particular technique indigenous to a particular style anyway? Every art has its strengthgs, weaknesses, and limitations. Hapkido, Judo, and BJJ included. All I can go by is what my 25 years of training has taught me. It is up to each individual to search for their own way. Maybe what I do does not fit most peoples definition of Hapkido. I train and teach elements of Wing Chun / Jeet Kune Do, Muay Thai, FMA, Judo, and BJJ along with my Hapkido. So maybe what I do is MMA with a street defense focus. Whatever it is, it works for me and those I teach. And thats what's important.

mike321
4/27/2012 4:42pm,
Find your way, make your art work for you, it's the artist not the style, somethings work and some don't, blend, meld, refine....I could go on. This all leads to a general disservice to martial arts. Effectiveness matters and only evidence speaks to effectiveness. Training in a style is to serve the practitioner. In this day and age there is no reason to study arts shrouded in mystery. MMA has put it all on display for the work to see. And all arts are welcome. (For that matter cell phone video and the Internet is putting street fighting on a public stage, much smaller sample so far but the same styles are dominating this "arena" also.)

Permalost
4/27/2012 5:00pm,
Please remember I am not saying that other martial arts styles don't have any value. I am simply saying that if a person studies hapkido diligently then it will work for self defense.
"Self Defense" is a very broad term that one could apply to everything from fighting terrorists to fighting a heart attack, so to say "X works for self-defense", there needs to be an explanation about what self defense means in that context.


I should also note that the way I practice and teach hapkido has been modified because of my experience in the other arts I have studied. I found some of the training methods out dated. Learning so many techniques from someone grabbing your wrist. In my experience many Hapkido practitioners do spend a lot of time on wrist grab defenses which I don't really see as being the most efficient way to train. Ofcourse that's not all that the mainstream traditional guys do but they certainly do alot of it.
So what did you take out, what did you modify, and what did you add? Where does hapkido end and "Wing Chun / Jeet Kune Do, Muay Thai, FMA, Judo, and BJJ along with my Hapkido" start? Also, what sort of FMA do you study?


I would like to know your justification for saying that many hapkido techiques are low percentage against "real people" which techniques are you refering to? This is a hard assumption to make because hapkido varies greatly from one instructor to the next.
There are some things that are very difficult to pull off against a truly resisting opponent, and the ones that I've seen in Hapkido include finger locks, stepping-through arm locks, spinning kicks, single point of contact throws, and Mortal Kombat sweeps. They occur rarely in competitions when allowed, and they're easy to fudge in training if the person tries to flail out of them. My idea of what is and isn't hapkido comes from training a little with a former hapkido teacher, and from Marc Tedeschi's Hapkido book (the big thick phone book one).

TheGrayMan214
4/27/2012 7:27pm,
Here is another guy who hapkido has worked for. And for the record, YeongJin is my hapkido instructor and has been for nearly 20 years.

I've bounced at Congo's Latin Club in Fayetteville, NC (Made the news not to long ago because the doorman got shot and killed), I used the knowledge a couple times, did what I needed it to do.

I've been downrange as a high risk civilian contractor, so I have learned a thing or two about combat the hard way, being shot a few times.

I've taught Hapkido to Law Enforcement myself that came back to me and said that a technique I taught them worked for them. Hell, we've taught Hapkido to a former Tier 1 Special Operations retiree.

In the end, no one martial art is king. No series of martial arts is king. Every discipline must come together. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG WITH TRAINING IN ANY ONE OR ANY COMBINATION OF ARTS!!!

The downside of MMA, BJJ, Judo, Taekwondo, and any other martial art that is used for a sport is not the art... it's the instructors that don't understand the first thing about using whatever they're teaching outside of the ring where there are no weight classes, absolutely no rules (because bad guys don't follow them anyway), and the bad guys bring friends. I love BJJ. But I don't want to be on the ground. I love boxing and kickboxing, but that makes for a mutual combat assault here in NC where we both go to jail. I love Jeet Kune Do, but blasting a guy into submission is an easy way to be the only one getting locked up. I love hapkido, but without striking and entry training, it is highly ineffective. I love the Filipino Martial Arts, but I can't deploy my ASP or my blade for every situation. I love training for combat shooting, but my GLOCK isn't always the answer.

All martial arts are good, all martial arts are bad, it just depends on how they're taught which traits are brought forth.

mike321
4/28/2012 12:01am,
All martial arts are good, all martial arts are bad, it just depends on how they're taught which traits are brought forth.

I disagree. Some martial arts consistently develop useful fighting skills for a wide range of people that can be objectively demonstrated to work; some martial arts do not. The thread is about whether hapkido is in the first or second category. Since we are on the Internet we can't use your personal experience as evidence. We don't have the ability to evaluate your character and whether you are a reliable source. We also can't easily corroborate any stories. It sucks but that is the nature of the media we are using. Also, to evaluate a style multiple types of people must see success with it. If you are inherently tough, athletic, and work in jobs that require physical confrontation, how do we separate the style from the person? I have a desk job. I can't use my personal experience to supplement an art. It needs to work and I need conclusive evidence that it works. Please note I am not in any way calling out hapkido. The question is the title of the thread and it is a legitimate question for all arts.

TheGrayMan214
4/28/2012 12:47am,
Also, to evaluate a style multiple types of people must see success with it. If you are inherently tough, athletic, and work in jobs that require physical confrontation, how do we separate the style from the person? I have a desk job. I can't use my personal experience to supplement an art. It needs to work and I need conclusive evidence that it works. Please note I am not in any way calling out hapkido. The question is the title of the thread and it is a legitimate question for all arts.


The answer is in how YOU as a person train it. Hapkido in and of itself dates from arts that come from the battlefield. Most martial arts do.

One thing battle (REAL battle... not a game) teaches a person...

Either you are the weapon and your "weapon" is the tool... Or your "weapon" is the weapon and you are a tool.


Currently, the vast majority of Hapkido instructors aren't prepared for such a battle... neither are the majority of martial sport instructors. You don't (necessarily... you never know how anything really works until you have to use it for real) have to have "experience" per se, you just have to have the mind of an evil genius and look past the bravo sierra that all martial arts systems will teach you... such as playing by rules. If the rules are there... think about why is it a no-go? Probably because it is used to really ruin someone's day. Personally, high kicking, spinning kicks, the low spinning sweeps, rolling around attempting to submit a guy on the pavement hoping his buddy doesn't crack my head open with his Doc Martens, trying to disarm a guy with a knife who is actively trying to cut and stab me... ALL of these things I think are dang near useless, regardless of where you learned them. Now, a lot of these apply to mainstream Hapkido... But does that make the art not "good?" Not necessarily.

The concepts of Hapkido are prevalent in all martial arts, it even shares a common ancestor (aikijujitsu) with the BJJ that most people seem to love, are what make it effective. It is lacking in some areas... Find me an art that's not. Remember when looking at media on Hapkido (or any subject for that matter) that most people putting things out there in books or videos are either sending them to students (or members of an organization) or are severely limiting what they put out, to keep what they've put together from being copied.

Don't judge a book by it's cover. The best advice would be to go to a seminar by In Sun Seo or some of the other prolific Hapkido instructors out there and see and feel for yourself.

mike321
4/28/2012 12:10pm,
Gray Man,

I am not a hapkido detractor or supporter. I earned a low color belt when I was in high school and was exposed to it. I also had a friend use its kicks to defend himself. Unfortunately, my story does not count as evidence although I believe it to be true. You and your instructor sound well qualified to provide real evidence to answer the question of the thread. If you feel like taking on this project the bullshido community will help you in identifying what counts and what does based on logic and reason (these rules predate this site and are not just made up). As a martial art fan I would enjoy seeing a solid effort.

Thanks

It is Fake
4/28/2012 2:08pm,
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=59713

Removed from a three year old thread.

Like what you do, enjoy what you train, but don't make up **** claims to validate what you do.

mike321
4/28/2012 3:00pm,
Gray Man,

We've been bumped!! Now is the time to step up and provide objective evidence! If you have any questions about what would need to be provided, just ask!

Tom .C
4/28/2012 6:14pm,
I would also like to understand how what you know, is the real hapkido. Your instructor claims that many other martial arts were combined in his style of teaching. If someone tells me, for instance, that the Judo they teach is real because they incorporate a lot of karate in it, I have some serious doubts that they understand Judo. If the hypothosis is that hapkido is awesome but your sample is a mix of several martial arts, how do you determine that hapkido is awsome. It would seem that your theory is based on some flawed reasoning.

gregaquaman
4/28/2012 6:32pm,
And they argue it wrong.

Ambush/counter ambush.
de escalation and comunication.
Law as it applies to you. How to write statements. give evidence and such.
How to fight as part of a team.

street vs sport differences right there.

Worse places to be than in mount wailing on a guy waiting for his friends to rock up.

Being the other guy is one.