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patfromlogan
5/07/2011 6:05pm,
So much bullshit, like:
Remember the Maine (bullshit)
Gulf of Tonkin (bullshit)
Weapons of Mass destruction (bullshit)
The Jessica Lynch Story, complete crapola - she even went public about how the gov was using her as propaganda.
Pat Tillman, complete bullshit.

and
“These (Taliban) gentlemen are the moral equivalents of America’s Founding Fathers.”— Ronald Wilson Reagan in 1985 while introducing the Mujahideen leaders to media on the White House lawn or “They hate our freedoms — our freedom of religion, our freedom of speech, our freedom to vote and assemble and disagree with each other.”– George W. Bush, September 20, 2001

“Even I’m getting confused,” Carney quipped during his briefing Tuesday.



The 'official' government story has quickly fallen apart and increasingly altered.

"Osama used his wife as a shield and “was firing behind her.”" and “He [bin Laden] was engaged in a firefight with those that entered the area of the house he was in."



The fierce firefight did not occur.
Osama bin Laden did not hide behind a woman.
A woman was not used as a human shield.
The woman was not a wife.
The woman "rushed the Seals"?? And was shot in the leg?
bin Laden was not armed.
Al Qaeda, "the most dangerous, best-trained, vicious killers on the face of the earth." (Rumsfeld) managed to inflict NO harm, no injuries?
It wasn’t bin Laden’s wife who was murdered by the Navy SEALs, but the wife of an aide.
It wasn’t bin Laden’s son, Khalid, who was murdered by the Navy SEALs, but son Hamza.

They blame the changed story on "the fog of war." But there was no firefight, so where did the "fog of war" come from?
from http://dailycaller.com/2011/05/04/a-wrap-up-of-the-inconsistencies-in-the-osama-bin-laden-narrative/2/
The White House has also admited that the story that President Obama and his national security team watched tensely as events unfolded in real time was bullshit: (despite the White House having released photos of the team watching tensely), with the operation conveyed into the White House by cameras on the SEALs helmets. If Obama was watching the event as it happened, he MIGHT have noticed, one would hope, that there was no firefight and, thus, would not have told the public that bin Laden was killed in a firefight. Another reason the story had to be abandoned is that if the event was captured on video, every news service in the world would be asking for the video, but if the event was orchestrated theater, there would be no video.

so was it
1) to justify getting the **** out of Afghanistan, even though we haven't exactly "won."
2) boost Obama's ratings
3) CIA bullshit and we'll never know the truth.

Styygens
5/07/2011 6:34pm,
*sigh*

Subscribe.

Cassius
5/07/2011 6:37pm,
1.) You don't always know what exactly happened on a mission until a few days later. For example, I got into a pretty bad firefight in 2009, and it was reported for months after that I slaughtered a buildings of terrorists with a 50 caliber machine gun mounted on an MRAP. When in fact, I was actually on foot clearing buildings with the team sergeant. I never even touched the 50 cal. The person who reported that on the radio wasn't trying to tell a lie, he just didn't know exactly where I was, and it got spread around. It took me a month to even find out that this rumor had been spread around, and I still haven't successfully squashed it. Adrenaline does weird things to your senses, and you aren't always able to sort things around until later. Radios don't always work that well for reporting accurate information, and whoever was on the other end was likely very eager to get preliminary info out.

2.) The government wasn't even 100% that UBL was in that compound. Knowing which of his sons was there would have been difficult, considering that most people in that part of the world have multiple names and easy access to forged identities. They made a best guess, and intel reflections after the fact proved them wrong.

3.) This "rapidly changing story" changes rapidly as new intel is digested and they are better able to inform the American public of what happened. While you see this as some sort of conspiracy, many see this as an attempt at transparency. In fact, internally speaking, this whole operation hasn't been any different than any other major operation in the past 9 years, with the sole exception that they are actually trying to keep the public in the loop. Example: The government really didn't go into detail on what happened with Uday and Qusay.

4.) The SEAL team members may not have told the exact truth during radio debrief, because it is frustrating to have calls you make during firefights armchair quarterbacked by people that weren't there. Nevermind the fact that they were dealing with a downed helicopter and probably weren't sure the bird they had left could exfil everyone safely. Having been a victim of a similar circumstance that ended up not going our way, it is hard to blame them for that, either.

Hint: Overseas Military operations have both the blessing and the curse of not being held to anything close to the evidentiary standard of police actions within the United States.

Final Thoughts: Marijuana rots your brain and makes you paranoid.

patfromlogan
5/07/2011 7:48pm,
Yeah Cassius. Perhaps you should read The Russia House by John Le Carre (Russian scientist goes down trying to show that the "arms race" is a contruct of CIA, KGB, and the military industrial complex of both countries - after all the primary goal of a bureaucracy is to increase funding, right?) and then years later, a KGB top guy, when asked during debriefing in DC after the fall of the Soviet Union, didn't anyone get it right? Said, yes, John Le Carre...

Cassius, just for curiosity, how about the Maine, Jessica, Saddam, Weapons, Tonkin - were they all paranoid delusions of mine? Christ man, read up on the WWl plans of Churchill that were designed to get the US on his side - the sinking of the Lusitania was another bs move, etc.

Nefron
5/07/2011 8:15pm,
Does the American public really buys into this crap every time? I'm primarily talking about justifications for starting new wars.

Styygens
5/07/2011 8:33pm,
Oooooo...

http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/31808561/Michael%20Jackson%20Jackson_popcorn.gif

CNagy
5/07/2011 8:34pm,
The government spins things to make them sound heroic or, alternatively, less completely psychotic? Seriously? I would have never guessed.

I would have never suspected that the government might try to blow the Jessica Lynch story out of proportion to bolster flagging public support for the wars. And who would have thought the government would have covered up a friendly-fire killing/murder of a pro football player turned soldier? Goodness gracious, there must be opportunists in the PR staffs.


Does the American public really buys into this crap every time? I'm primarily talking about justifications for starting new wars.
Killing Osama is about the opposite of a war-starting justification. The sentiment of "we got him, let's bring the boys home" is pretty strong, coupled with the idea that we don't have much of a reason to be in Afghanistan any more. I'm sure we're making suspicious-eye glares at Pakistan, though.

Nefron
5/07/2011 8:35pm,
And Libya.

CNagy
5/07/2011 8:39pm,
Peer pressure from the rest of the world on that one.

Sinophile
5/08/2011 7:55am,
Not sure about the rest of the world really, i think the pressure comes mostly from the UK and France in an effort to rectify some monumental f*** ups. Historic involvement in north africa spurs the French into action and the national shame of the lockerbie release is fresh in the British governments mind.

and am i to understand that the US government has no video of what happened? (i think that was said in the first post). If so i think we could fan the flames of conspiracy theorists by saying "video or it didn't happen"

There, i have got rid of that annoying message, made a minor political observation and finally realised the dream of saying "video or it didn't happen" all in one post. Nice :)

Odacon
5/08/2011 9:08am,
I'm of the opinion that the whole operation was one **** up after another that's why there's multiple stories etc. I bet the real reason the pictures of osama's body haven't been released is becasue the lens cap was left on or something.

Eddie Hardon
5/08/2011 9:38am,
The OP? Yeah, familiar with all of it. (Feeling a right smug bastard now, ha ha - sorry)

Russia House? Yeah read it years ago. Finished his lastest, last week. Read 'em all.

The thing I'm slightly curious about is that his Missus was shot in the leg as she attacked the SEALS. Hmm. A Brave Act attacking THEM especially when they're armed to the teeth and you have, er, er, a foreign language with possible swear words.

And against all Room Entry procedures, they shot her in the leg - presumably as the Humane course, cos she's a woman. Whereas, the training would suggest Double Tap to either Chest and/or Head.

But, but, but...she was shot in the Calf. How? It's the other side of the body. Did the SEAL reach over the body or turn her around (politely of course, cos she's a woman).

So, obviously more bollocks in the public briefings treating the public as unthinking buffoons.

It might be more honest to just say that the SEALS acted upon the Briefing Intelligence. Instead, it's just fudging and talking down to everyone.

The missing photo. Why be coy? We've seen the edited video. US $$$ paid for every aspect of the Operation. The murder of 3,000 citizens in the Twin Towers could NOT have been more public. I'm still agog that he persuaded the PhD Atta and others to immolate themselves - and I include the Signal in the murder of Masood in the Panjsher Valley. Odd that such Leaders never put themselves as such Risk as did those who do the bidding. (This is a ref wholly directed at the Al Qaida suiciders - none of whom included Bin Liner nor his immediate family. He was old news, really, and long an irrelevance particularly in the light of the Arab Spring. He could NEVER have foreseen THAT. Nor would he keen on being sidelined at such a time.

Still, it closes a Chapter. A Bad Man and hopefully to be forgotten like, say, Sant Jarnail Bindrinwhale.

Cassius
5/08/2011 9:39am,
Cassius, just for curiosity, how about the Maine, Jessica, Saddam, Weapons, Tonkin - were they all paranoid delusions of mine? Christ man, read up on the WWl plans of Churchill that were designed to get the US on his side - the sinking of the Lusitania was another bs move, etc.I can only really speak to some of the actions you refer to with an insider's perspective, but there are major differences between the operation that killed bin laden and the incidents you refer to. First of all, instead of taking years for the "real" story to come out, the public is getting almost daily updates as the gubment's understanding of what took place evolves. Second, at no point since the operation happened has the Obama administration even attempted to pretend that they sent a team of SEALs in to do anything other than kill Bin Laden, armed or not, grab as much intelligence as possible, and take his body with them. In fact, the whole reason they sent a team instead of letting a Predator take care of things was to collect as much evidence as possible.

This is an unprecedented era of government transparency when it comes to military and intelligence operations, largely driven by three men: President Obama, Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, and General Petraeus. If it weren't for these men, our government would probably still be denying the existence of "black" units like 1st SFODD, DEVGRU, and probably of JSOC as a whole. Instead, they are giving almost daily press conferences updating the public on what happened, even if the real story isn't as good as the original.

As far as Tonkin, the Maine, Jessica Lynch, the Lusitania, etc, those are clear cut cases of politicians using half truths of further their agendas. But the interesting thing about them is that as time progresses, this works less and less. Part of this is the onset of the information age, and the other part is genuine interest in increasing government transparency.

WMDs: After 9/11 our government was reeling. Any intelligence involving al-Qaida and WMDs was taken very seriously. The other issue is this: The UN resolutions introduced by the United States and passed by the UN specified that Saddam Hussein was required to prove to the UN that he had discontinued his use of WMDs. The burden of proof was on him. Instead, he continually frustrated weapons inspectors, flipped the UN the bird, and did everything he could to make it seem like he was more dangerous than he really was. The fact remains that we ended up invading Iraq because Saddam Hussein was more concerned with making himself look dangerous to Iran than he was with a potential US led invasion. In fact, he was obsessed with making it appear that he did actually have WMDs, and saw this as a good way to deter Iran from attacking. The fact that the US was really the only country besides Britain to follow through on the UN SC Resolution 1441 authorizing all necessary force against Saddam's government is not surprising, SINCE WE WERE THE ONES WHO JUST GOT ATTACKED ON OUR OWN SOIL. The fact that we ended up being wrong about WMDs is sad, but it's not for a lack of evidence to the contrary.

As far as the US's track record with shithead dictators and insurgents goes, I think it boils down to this: During the Cold War, the US got into bed with a large number of assholes who had the sole virtue of hating Communism. At the time, defeating Communism seemed a lot more important to US policymakers than worrying about Islamist Jihad or brutal repressive dictators. And again, this seems to have happened after 9/11 with the GWOT. The US got into bed (a little less willingly this time) with repressive dictators who had the sole virtue of despising Islamist insurgents. These decisions are not particularly good, but they are seen as pragmatic, and the better of two bad choices. What we are seeing now, with the Arab spring, is what the US had hoped would happen with the onset of the GWOT: People taking control of their destinies, and overthrowing brutal regimes.

For the first time since WWII ended and the Cold War began, I truly believe American Foreign Policy is on the right track to exit stage left on this tiresome World Police musical, along with all the song and dance of pretending to be friendly with brutal, repressive dictors, and taking a more multilateral approach to international relations. In truth, I hope we are on the very cusp of exiting the Middle East for good. Let everyone else fight it out, for a change.

Cassius
5/08/2011 9:41am,
I'm of the opinion that the whole operation was one **** up after another that's why there's multiple stories etc. I bet the real reason the pictures of osama's body haven't been released is becasue the lens cap was left on or something.Your opinion is idiotic. There were 25 SEALs on the ground. Thus, you will get 25 very different stories.

Tom .C
5/08/2011 9:49am,
Make all the conspiracy proclamations you want. Osama Dead Ladin is no longer involved. Hoofuckingray!!!

It sucks when fuckheads like Rove, Cheney, and any others, worm their way into the government and **** over people like Valerie Plame and the citizens of every country. It violates our trust and adds to the general mistrust of the government. Conspiracy, lies, and actual enemies exist. You can also find good food, great beer, and walk around bitching about government conspiracy. Try that **** is assganistan or about anywhere else and see how that works for you.

patfromlogan
5/08/2011 10:23am,
Cassius, thank you for not insulting this time - that was a good post (forget about repping it though, I'm so mad about your first post that I'm going to go smoke a big joint!).

Why not take him alive?