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tao.jonez
4/28/2011 3:47pm,
I was talking with a buddy of mine and he quoted me some interesting trivia regarding martial arts and martial artists. I, of course, did not verify (At a glance his figures are probably not accurate, but let's ignore that).

His first notion was that 1 in 1000 people take up martial arts.
Second he said that only 1 in 100 of those people make it past 3 months of training. Point being very few people train in MA which is true, regardless of the actual figures. He said that anyone training past that has an advantage.

It got me thinking; how long DO you need to train to give yourself a noticeable advantage against an untrained person?

3 months of boxing or Muay Thai would be an enormous advantage over the average guy. Assuming sparring takes place, cardio and becoming accustomed to taking hits would be significant enough to give one an advantage.

3 months of jiu jitsu or judo, not so dramatic, but a slight advantage in the right situation. The cardio's there in many cases, and a simple trip or sweep could change the tide in a scuffle.

So what do you think? How fast can training be effective? And how quickly do those learned skills fade away?

Epeeist
4/28/2011 3:57pm,
I was talking with a buddy of mine and he quoted me some interesting trivia regarding martial arts and martial artists. I, of course, did not verify (At a glance his figures are probably not accurate, but let's ignore that).

His first notion was that 1 in 1000 people take up martial arts.
Second he said that only 1 in 100 of those people make it past 3 months of training. Point being very few people train in MA which is true, regardless of the actual figures. He said that anyone training past that has an advantage.

It got me thinking; how long DO you need to train to give yourself a noticeable advantage against an untrained person?

3 months of boxing or Muay Thai would be an enormous advantage over the average guy. Assuming sparring takes place, cardio and becoming accustomed to taking hits would be significant enough to give one an advantage.

3 months of jiu jitsu or judo, not so dramatic, but a slight advantage in the right situation. The cardio's there in many cases, and a simple trip or sweep could change the tide in a scuffle.

So what do you think? How fast can training be effective? And how quickly do those learned skills fade away?

Being able to punch in a straight line already puts you in position of a speed advantage as most people without training tend to throw looping dumbass haymakers in my personal experience.

Permalost
4/28/2011 4:21pm,
When training is at a minimum, it seems to me that physical attributes become more of a deciding factor. In a haymaker/crapple/headlock/sit on/short punches from the scarf/soccer kicks kind of fight, being big and strong is a big advantage. Since those attributes vary, it's hard to say.

maofas
4/28/2011 4:22pm,
Tao, I think 3 mos. of grappling can help a lot with groundwork compared to an untrained attacker, but with standup throwing... not so much. A simple sweep? If you mean a reversal while on the ground sure, but if you mean a footsweep... pure skill/timing technique, not bloody likely.

I don't think 3 mos. of striking is that huge a difference TBH, but anything helps better than nothing. Most of it will probably fly right out the window as soon as punches start flying.

Epeeist
4/28/2011 4:26pm,
Tao, I think 3 mos. of grappling can help a lot with groundwork compared to an untrained attacker, but with standup throwing... not so much. A simple sweep? If you mean a reversal while on the ground sure, but if you mean a footsweep... pure skill/timing technique, not bloody likely.

I don't think 3 mos. of striking is that huge a difference TBH, but anything helps better than nothing. Most of it will probably fly right out the window as soon as punches start flying.

Do you mean an Osoto-gari type sweep or a Shotokan type sweep?

ProfessorChaos
4/28/2011 5:10pm,
All other factors being the same a person with 3 months of good training will beat a person with no training in a fair fight. The thing is with self defense, often you have already been hit before you know that you are in a fight instead of an argument. In such a case 3 months of training will not have given you much of an advantage. In 3 months you can learn a little technique and even less timing. But more importantly 3 months is very little time to learn the calm mental toughness needed to deal with a situation where you have to play catch-up from the start. Still, it's better than no training.

Also, there is no such thing as an untrained person. (I know there actually is.) But you have to treat any fight as though it is with the devil himself. Underestimate someone and they might end up fucking you in their van.

Epeeist
4/28/2011 5:17pm,
Not to mention the kind of people who attack you are likely to be tough and aggressive, which are awesome qualities for fighting.

Petter
4/28/2011 5:20pm,
I was talking with a buddy of mine and he quoted me some interesting trivia regarding martial arts and martial artists. I, of course, did not verify (At a glance his figures are probably not accurate, but let's ignore that).

His first notion was that 1 in 1000 people take up martial arts.
Second he said that only 1 in 100 of those people make it past 3 months of training.
As you say, those figures are assuredly not accurate. In fact, they aren’t even in the same order of magnitude as anything with any resemblance to accuracy. If only 1 in 100,000 practices martial arts, there are about 340 martial artists in Canada. Judging by my gym’s enrolment, all of them must be at GB Vancouver, most of them with two memberships.

The US has a much bigger martial artist population, by his estimate, of 3,010. This article from 1993 (http://www.aikidojournal.com/article?articleID=643) estimated that there are over 1,000 aikido dojo in the USA, and that’s just the MA I could first find numbers on (out of dozens of martial arts), so we must conclude that most martial arts schools in the US have less than one member.


3 months of boxing or Muay Thai would be an enormous advantage over the average guy. Assuming sparring takes place, cardio and becoming accustomed to taking hits would be significant enough to give one an advantage.
Some of this is perishable, though. How long will the effects of conditioning stick if you cease to regularly do hard exercise? Ditto grappling cardio. The skills, well, even good people get rusty: How much of those 3 months will still stick after a year or two?

maofas
4/28/2011 5:21pm,
Do you mean an Osoto-gari type sweep or a Shotokan type sweep?

Well, osoto gari isn't a sweep. I meant Judo footsweeps because he was talking about Jiu-jitsu and Judo in that sentence.

An 18 year-old kid at my Judo club who hadn't been training longer than a few months DID successfully defend himself from a serious (meaning not a school fight) attack with an osoto. That technique has pretty high self-ownage potential too though, so I honestly don't know if that's a reliable outcome to expect from a 3 month student (I guess it has a better chance of working than a lot of things after 3 mos. though).

judoka_uk
4/28/2011 5:24pm,
When training is at a minimum, it seems to me that physical attributes become more of a deciding factor. In a haymaker/crapple/headlock/sit on/short punches from the scarf/soccer kicks kind of fight, being big and strong is a big advantage. Since those attributes vary, it's hard to say.
This. I can get a big, strong fit guy to be reasonably proficient in 3-6 months, enough to be able to defend himself against a solo average joe attacker. Getting a 7 stone girl or 12 stone male of average height we're talking years to decades.

Epeeist
4/28/2011 5:27pm,
Well, osoto gari isn't a sweep. I meant Judo footsweeps because he was talking about Jiu-jitsu and Judo in that sentence.

An 18 year-old kid at my Judo club who hadn't been training longer than a few months DID successfully defend himself from a serious (meaning not a school fight) attack with an osoto. That technique has pretty high self-ownage potential too though, so I honestly don't know if that's a reliable outcome to expect from a 3 month student. I suppose it has a better chance of working than most stuff after 3 mos. though...

I asked because I had a similar experience with osoto gari and it being an effective self defense technique with only a few months.

cosmichearse
4/28/2011 5:33pm,
My 3 months of hung gar probably would done me a disservice if I ever got into a fight.

But the after 3 months of Muay Thai I could punch, teep, roundhouse, had a very rudimentary understanding of clinching and had sparred once or twice a week. "What if's" abound, but I think that 3 months of striking makes a big difference.

Also, the more I trained the less I cared about "the streets".

Petter
4/28/2011 5:37pm,
Also, the more I trained the less I cared about "the streets".
This seems to happen a lot.

I don’t think of myself as a skilled fighter (my considerable limitations are forcibly demonstrated to me several times a week), but I think I have fewer irrational fears and insecurities than I did before I started practicing martial arts.

Epeeist
4/28/2011 7:35pm,
This seems to happen a lot.

I don’t think of myself as a skilled fighter (my considerable limitations are forcibly demonstrated to me several times a week), but I think I have fewer irrational fears and insecurities than I did before I started practicing martial arts.

I train MA for self-defense, fun, and fitness but have barely given a thought to the whole "deadly streets" aspect in a while.

StepInCross
4/28/2011 8:38pm,
Even in a third-world country, getting into a fist fight when you're out of high-school isn't very common. AND when it does happen, you can easily talk your way out of it or run away if they're too drunk to reason with.

If you want a reliable method of self-defense that isn't perishable, try "being observant-fu" and "politeness-chun." Thats pretty much all there is to it. There is always ample warning that shits gonna go down. The tense staredowns and posturing is pretty easy to notice and gives enough time for you to get the **** out of there.

On the other hand if you're getting ganged up on by people with a grudge, you've already failed both "observant-fu" and "politeness-chun" and chances are you did something for them to exact disproportionate revenge.

*Granted, I shouldn't really be talking about being as cautious as possible as I'm the type of person that gets into easily avoided fights.*

Epeeist
4/28/2011 8:46pm,
Even in a third-world country, getting into a fist fight when you're out of high-school isn't very common. AND when it does happen, you can easily talk your way out of it or run away if they're too drunk to reason with.

If you want a reliable method of self-defense that isn't perishable, try "being observant-fu" and "politeness-chun." Thats pretty much all there is to it. There is always ample warning that shits gonna go down. The tense staredowns and posturing is pretty easy to notice and gives enough time for you to get the **** out of there.

On the other hand if you're getting ganged up on by people with a grudge, you've already failed both "observant-fu" and "politeness-chun" and chances are you did something for them to exact disproportionate revenge.

*Granted, I shouldn't really be talking about being as cautious as possible as I'm the type of person that gets into easily avoided fights.*

I notice from the fu and chun suffixes that these are both Chinese arts. where is the wise bearded master I may learn these from.