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Zerstörer90
4/25/2011 12:46pm,
I just recently competed in a fundraising sumo event for my dojo and a local charity. I noticed that a lot of the (very amateur) sumo competitors would just charge right forward for a quick ring out. So when I circled to dissipate the freight train charge that always came, they would try to wrap up my upper torso and suplex me (badly) sideways out of the ring, using their continued momentum to recover the fumble. On a few occasions I threw them with O Goshi (or whatever the one is when you are countering), and it seemed pretty effective.

So, I'm wondering what people's take are on using Judo Techniques in a competition with sumo rules. Is it effective?

BKR
4/25/2011 12:50pm,
You mean Sumo throws in Judo?

Sumo has many throws similar to ones used in Judo, or vice versa depending on how you look at it.

Other than that, congrats on throwing some amateur sumo guys and raising some money.

That's what this is about anyway, right? You throwing noob sumo guys around?

Ben

Zerstörer90
4/25/2011 1:04pm,
You mean Sumo throws in Judo?
Ah, well I suppose my question goes both ways. Though I'm far more interested in how Judo works against conditioned and trained sumo wrestlers in a sumo competition. (In this hypothetical scenario, they are the same weight, height, skill level in their respective arts)



That's what this is about anyway, right? You throwing noob sumo guys around?

Well that is what brought up the question, I'm just trying to delve in more, in particular to what the Bullshido community thinks of using some of the application methods taught in Judo compared to the application of similar techniques (O Goshi, Uchimata, etc.) taught in Sumo, and the effectiveness of both. Last time i tried to do sumo I was in terrible condition and was wiped out in the first round. This time I did better, but i didn't end up winning the whole thing. I'm also a sumo noob.

BKR
4/25/2011 1:08pm,
Nonsensical question, good luck with that.

Why didn't you use aikido? LOL!

Ben

Zerstörer90
4/25/2011 1:17pm,
Nonsensical question, good luck with that.
Sorry for my ignorance, but do you mind explaining this a little more? Why is it nonsensical?


Why didn't you use aikido? LOL!
Truthfully? Because there is no way it would work in that particular environment. The way I've been taught aikido is that it either requires you to be standing upright (ideally in a large open space with lots of exits, which is absolutely not a sumo ring, and being upright would likely cause you to lose a sumo match quickly) or being on your knees (which means you lose in sumo). Judo, I've noticed, has highly applicable throws from a very low base that work against resisting opponents.
(Sarcasm) Also, i didn't want to KILL my opponents, I merely wanted to win. Aikido is too d34d1y for competition sports. (/Sarcasm)

Lu Tze
4/25/2011 1:48pm,
Sorry for my ignorance, but do you mind explaining this a little more? Why is it nonsensical?Because sumo training is obviously more optimal for sumo... all else being equal the sumo guy would win the sumo match. You shouldn't need someone else to tell you this.

Zerstörer90
4/25/2011 1:59pm,
Because sumo training is obviously more optimal for sumo... all else being equal the sumo guy would win the sumo match. You shouldn't need someone else to tell you this.

Ah. Gotcha. Well I suppose a more reasonable question would be "How compatible is Judo training for a Sumo competition?"

Zerstörer90
4/25/2011 2:27pm,
Also, the Sumo thing was a lot of fun, and I'm glad we were able to raise a bunch of money and put on a good show for the people who paid for it.

keyoz
4/26/2011 10:38am,
You mean Sumo throws in Judo?
This. Sumo is the older art/sport so most probably the throws that are similar came to Judo from Sumo, directly or via Trad Jujitsu.

Also: I'm pretty sure that Asashoryu - the previous Yokozuna trained Bokh (mongolian wrestling) and Judo before becoming a Sumoka.

judoka_uk
4/26/2011 10:41am,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls_zTtZCrt8

BKR
4/26/2011 10:58am,
Sorry for my ignorance, but do you mind explaining this a little more? Why is it nonsensical?


Truthfully? Because there is no way it would work in that particular environment. The way I've been taught aikido is that it either requires you to be standing upright (ideally in a large open space with lots of exits, which is absolutely not a sumo ring, and being upright would likely cause you to lose a sumo match quickly) or being on your knees (which means you lose in sumo). Judo, I've noticed, has highly applicable throws from a very low base that work against resisting opponents.
(Sarcasm) Also, i didn't want to KILL my opponents, I merely wanted to win. Aikido is too d34d1y for competition sports. (/Sarcasm)

I'm glad to see you still have a sense of humor. Didn't know you were training Judo formally, how long you been doing it?

Ben

BKR
4/26/2011 11:07am,
Because sumo training is obviously more optimal for sumo... all else being equal the sumo guy would win the sumo match. You shouldn't need someone else to tell you this.


Besides, there is huge crossover between sumo and judo nage waza. Here is a small list of Sumo nage waza.


http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/sumo_techniques/k.html

And here is a list of all the official techniques. Browse through and see what I mean.

http://sumo.goo.ne.jp/eng/kimarite/index.html


Aikido principles of tai sabaki would apply, no need for kote waza. Just get out of the way.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/images/sumo_techniques/img/sumo_subtitle_technique.gif

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/images/sumo_techniques/img/bit_small.gifKainahineri

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/images/sumo_techniques/thumbs/kainahineri.jpgKainahineri (two-handed arm twist down) - The attacker locks up one of the defender's arms with both arms and, turning into his opponent, twists him over and into the clay.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/images/sumo_techniques/img/bit_small.gifKakenage

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/images/sumo_techniques/thumbs/kakenage.jpgKakenage (hooking inner thigh throw) - The attacker hooks one leg inside the defender's legs and turns away in order to raise the hooked leg up and back to force the defender up and over into the clay.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/images/sumo_techniques/img/bit_small.gifKakezori

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/images/sumo_techniques/thumbs/kakezori.jpgKakezori (hooking backwards body drop) - With his head under one of the defender's arms and an inside grip of his opponent's mawashi on the opposite side, the attacker attempts to twist the defender over or hook the defender's closest leg, driving his head into the defender's side to force him over backward.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/images/sumo_techniques/img/bit_small.gifKatasukashi

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/images/sumo_techniques/thumbs/katasukashi.jpgKatasukashi (under-shoulder swing down) - The attacker forces his opponent down by placing one hand on the opponent's shoulder blade from the inside and one from the outside, pulling him down and forward.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/images/sumo_techniques/img/bit_small.gifKawazugake

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/images/sumo_techniques/thumbs/kakezori.jpgKawazugake (hooking backward counter throw) - The attacker hooks his opponent's closest leg from the inside and takes him over backward by pulling the hooked leg forward and across his own body.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/images/sumo_techniques/img/bit_small.gifKekaeshi

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/images/sumo_techniques/thumbs/kekaeshi.jpgKekaeshi (minor inner footsweep) - The attacker sweeps his opponent's leg out from under him by kicking the defender's leg from the inside, often accompanied by a well-timed slap on the defender's back.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/images/sumo_techniques/img/bit_small.gifKetaguri

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/images/sumo_techniques/thumbs/ketaguri.jpgKetaguri (pulling inside ankle sweep) - Usually seen at the tachi-ai (initial charge), the attacker leaps to the side and kicks or sweeps his opponent's lead leg from the inside while slapping the shoulder or pulling the arm closest to him.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/images/sumo_techniques/img/bit_small.gifKimedashi

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/images/sumo_techniques/thumbs/kimedashi.jpgKimedashi (arm barring force out) - The attacker locks up the defender's elbows by wrapping his own arms around them from the outside, pulling up and in to march or swing the opponent backward and out of the ring.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/images/sumo_techniques/img/bit_small.gifKimetaoshi

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/images/sumo_techniques/thumbs/kimetaoshi.jpgKimetaoshi (arm barring force down) - The attacker locks up one or both of the opponent's elbows with an outside grip, then throwing his weight into and on top of the opponent.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/images/sumo_techniques/img/bit_small.gifKirikaeshi

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/images/sumo_techniques/thumbs/kirikaeshi.jpgKirikaeshi (twisting backward knee trip) - The attacker takes a deep step forward, placing his knee behind his opponent's lead leg, then twists his opponent backward and over that knee.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/images/sumo_techniques/img/bit_small.gifKomatasukui

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/images/sumo_techniques/thumbs/komatasukui.jpgKomatasukui (over thigh scooping body drop) - Best used in combination with an over-arm or under-arm throw. As the opponent takes a deep step forward to defend against the throw, the attacker grabs the opponent's leg and pulls up to drive the opponent over backward.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/images/sumo_techniques/img/bit_small.gifKoshikudake

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/images/sumo_techniques/thumbs/koshikudake.jpgKoshikudake (inadvertent collapse) - Koshikudake is recorded outside sumo's official list of winning techniques. A rikishi falls over backward without his opponent attempting any technique, often the result of a rikishi overcommitting to an attack.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/images/sumo_techniques/img/bit_small.gifKoshinage

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/images/sumo_techniques/thumbs/koshinage.jpgKoshinage (hip throw) - The attacker turns into his opponent while pulling him onto his hips, straightening his knees, throwing the defender over and onto his back.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/images/sumo_techniques/img/bit_small.gifKotehineri

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/images/sumo_techniques/thumbs/kotehineri.jpgKoshikudake (inadvertent collapse) - Koshikudake is recorded outside sumo's official list of winning techniques. A rikishi falls over backward without his opponent attempting any technique, often the result of a rikishi overcommitting to an attack.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/images/sumo_techniques/img/bit_small.gifKotenage

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/images/sumo_techniques/thumbs/kotenage.jpgKotenage (armlock throw) - The attacker wraps his arm around the opponent's inside gripping arm, locking it up on or near the elbow and turning away from him, usually at the edge of the ring.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/images/sumo_techniques/img/bit_small.gifKozumatori

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/images/sumo_techniques/thumbs/kozumatori.jpgKozumatori (ankle pick) - The attacker leans into his opponent and grabs the opponent's ankle or base of the calf, then pulls that ankle up and toward him while driving into his foe, forcing him over onto his back. Another variation has the attacker pulling on the same ankle or calf from behind.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/images/sumo_techniques/img/bit_small.gifKubihineri

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/images/sumo_techniques/thumbs/kubihineri.jpgKubihineri (head twisting throw) - The attacker wraps one hand around his opponent's neck and the other hand around the opponent's inside gripping arm, then pulling the hand on the opponent's neck and twisting the opponent onto the clay.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/images/sumo_techniques/img/bit_small.gifKubinage

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/images/sumo_techniques/thumbs/kubinage.jpgKubinage (headlock throw) - The attacker turns into his opponent and throws him by wrapping one arm around his neck as he makes that turn. The other hand is usually gripping the opponent's arm furthest from him from the outside.

BKR
4/26/2011 11:08am,
Also, the Sumo thing was a lot of fun, and I'm glad we were able to raise a bunch of money and put on a good show for the people who paid for it.

Good work again on that!

Ben

BKR
4/26/2011 11:13am,
This. Sumo is the older art/sport so most probably the throws that are similar came to Judo from Sumo, directly or via Trad Jujitsu.

Also: I'm pretty sure that Asashoryu - the previous Yokozuna trained Bokh (mongolian wrestling) and Judo before becoming a Sumoka.

Sumo is very old, older than most traditional koryu jujutsu, which until the 1600s were a minor part of combat training relative to weapon training. Sumo has evolved over time as well, the history is fascinating if you dig into it a bit.

Sumoka? Sumitori? Not sure about the nomenclature.

Ben

100xobm
4/26/2011 6:49pm,
Think it's sumotori. That ouchi in the video is awesome.

Zerstörer90
4/26/2011 9:21pm,
I'm glad to see you still have a sense of humor. Didn't know you were training Judo formally, how long you been doing it?
Actually I'm not, I've been doing a lot of rolling with a few of my friends that hold middle-ranks in Judo. Though I'm looking into Taking Judo starting Summer Quarter, because I heard somewhere (here) that it's cheap, affordable, and has excellent quality control.

And it's hard to exist in this day and age without some sense of humor. And if you can't take good criticism then you aren't a good martial artist.