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Ignorami
4/08/2011 2:57pm,
Our ukemi is not dissimilar to judo ukemi I think. It would be wise at an early stage I think to differentiate between ukemi and 'aikido rolls'.

Aikido rolls are a symptom of excessively choreographed practice. Even elaborate rolling ukemi feels different to this (IME), because of the distance, connection, and source of the driving energy behind it.

In addition to the ukemi as just safe falling, aikido ukemi also ought to include other absorbing an attack in a non-resisting but effective way. The best way I can think of explaining what I mean by this to non aikido people is to think of tomo-Nage (sp) in judo. Assuming I understand that throw correctly, it functions like a sacrifice throw?

Big rolls without connection to your opponent exist in aikido (and can be fun), but good, responsive, reactive and proactive ukemi should be fundamental.

EDIT: say "I think" again ************. I dare you. I double dare you.

Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs
4/08/2011 3:04pm,
Which has zero relevance to my actual argument. Not the Argument in my first post, nor any argument in any subsequent post.

This is called the straw man fallacy. You are attempting to argue against a position that nobody is supporting or representing.

????

Your first post is about reshaping Aikido ukemi into ukemido so that it can be used in MMA and SD.
When I point to you that there's habit in Aikido ukemi that can be exploited against the ukemidoka by the fighters who have trained in Judo throws I'm creating a strawman?

So your point is to create a breakfall art to move around an opponent without any use when you get thrown by that opponent?

Yoj
4/08/2011 3:06pm,
This is an interesting dvd to watch if you are interested in this malarky:

http://cache.budovideos.com/images/covers/10317.jpg

As I recall, one of the thing that Amdur sensei does is approach aikido ukemi as being already a failure in terms of their 'performance' aspect. Aikido is, possibly, the product of 2 skilled people trying to take each others center and throw them, from that perspective one would maintain posture as well as one could until it was clearly lost and then still follow the ukemi through in a manner that kept one the safest, considering the other person intends you damage.

In aikido normally, a point is reached where uke just gives up, changes his mind, and launches himself as prettily as he can, Amdur suggests this is a poor approach to training, and the correct response is to use it as an opportunity for damage limitation.

It was thinking about stuff like that that gave me a different view of what aikido could be, if myself and a partner were messing around, loosely, and neither one of you is the uke, then how do you know who is meant to do the big fall, we'd end up bouncing each others postures until eventually someone would get the upper hand, but even in probable defeat you still do what you can to save yourself, because it's not yet over, it would even turn into crappy groundwork at that point too. That gave me some faith in aikido, just not most aikidoka.

It's valid too, when you train to win compliantly with no aliveness, thats an obvious failing, but when your entire ukemi system assumes who is the loser, then what?

Aikininjer
4/08/2011 3:06pm,
Our ukemi is not dissimilar to judo ukemi I think. It would be wise at an early stage I think to differentiate between ukemi and 'aikido rolls'.

Aikido rolls are a symptom of excessively choreographed practice. Even elaborate rolling ukemi feels different to this (IME), because of the distance, connection, and source of the driving energy behind it.

In addition to the ukemi as just safe falling, aikido ukemi also ought to include other absorbing an attack in a non-resisting but effective way. The best way I can think of explaining what I mean by this to non aikido people is to think of tomo-Nage (sp) in judo. Assuming I understand that throw correctly, it functions like a sacrifice throw?

Big rolls without connection to your opponent exist in aikido (and can be fun), but good, responsive, reactive and proactive ukemi should be fundamental.

This is pretty much everything I would want to say, too.
To the OP: Why even bother mentioning Aikido in the title if you're not restricting the Ukemi to Aikido specific Ukemi?

DCS
4/08/2011 3:10pm,
Correct about what? That there is little value in breakfall training, or that the goals of said training are too ambitious?
He didn't said any of these things.


Please imagine for a moment that this has nothing to do with Aikido, and the only breakfalls that are trained are the best kind of breakfall for such techniques as:

Double leg takedown
Hip throws
Shooting body lock

ie: Techniques that people actually use.
I can imagine this.

tao.jonez
4/08/2011 3:12pm,
Since this thread is 'How We Can Save Aikido", what is specific to Aikido breakfalls that is not offered in other disciplines?

As a non-aikidoka, I think first of big rolls. Colin mentions rolling past and through your assailant, so I got stuck on the rolling bit. How are the other breakfalls different?

Colin
4/08/2011 3:12pm,
When I point to you that there's habit in Aikido ukemi that can be exploited against the ukemidoka by the fighters who have trained in Judo throws I'm creating a strawman?
Your argument is a strawman because it implies that the Ukemi being proposed somehow excludes Judo ukemi.


So your point is to create a breakfall art to move around an opponent without any use when you get thrown by that opponent?

No. The point is to improve the level of safety in the gym, and potentially improve your opportunities for positional recovery during combat also.

DCS
4/08/2011 3:17pm,
Yoj,

I've not seen Amdur's dvd on ukemi but a pair of aikido partners of mine who have seen it told me it is "meh".

DCS
4/08/2011 3:22pm,
No. The point is to improve the level of safety in the gym, and potentially improve your opportunities for positional recovery during combat also.
And this relates to saving aikido?

Yoj
4/08/2011 3:22pm,
DCS, that's understandable, they do aikido ;-)

Ignorami
4/08/2011 3:23pm,
Since this thread is 'How We Can Save Aikido", what is specific to Aikido breakfalls that is not offered in other disciplines?

As a non-aikidoka, I think first of big rolls. Colin mentions rolling past and through your assailant, so I got stuck on the rolling bit. How are the other breakfalls different?

IMO, it's the emphasis on ukemi in training. The ukemi itself is largely the same as offered elsewhere.

As I was taught it, ukemi in aikido doesn't begin when you loose, and end when you land. It should be continual from first contact, and applied with a view to NOT needing to finish. Staying live and proactive in the ukemi process until either defeated or countering. This is where I think it would be useful in colin's hypothetical.

The amdur DVD Joj recommended is great, and kind of covers this idea, in that throughout it ukemi is taught in a way that doesn't commit you to the fall until the very last second. It aims to keep you safe if the throw is changed mid-way.

Colin
4/08/2011 3:27pm,
DCS: Now you're being obtuse.
It relates to Aikido because firstly, it was my pre-Judo ukemi experience, and furthermore, I believe Aikidoka generally have tons more breakfalling experience than Judoka of the same experience level, due to that fact that in compliant Aikido drilling, you get thrown down, alot. In Judo, you spend more time on your feet wrestling for position than time spent getting thrown.

It also relates to Aikido because it shows that a current Aikido training practice is demonstrably relevant to modern safety.

DCS
4/08/2011 3:45pm,
DCS: Now you're being obtuse.
It relates to Aikido because firstly, it was my pre-Judo ukemi experience
But as is not mine, because I was taught judo style breakfalls at 12, years before I was aware of aikido existence, I feel the relationship is only valid to you.

Breakfalls and rolls are properly taught and practised in lots of styles. One doesn't not need aikido to learn how to land safely and recover/move to a safer distance/reengage/whatever.


I believe Aikidoka generally have tons more breakfalling experience than Judoka of the same experience level, due to that fact that in compliant Aikido drilling, you get thrown down, alot.
With throws that one is not going to suffer IRL except in very rare ocasion.


In Judo, you spend more time on your feet wrestling for position than time spent getting thrown.
Judo is Judo.


It also relates to Aikido because it shows that a current Aikido training practice is demonstrably relevant to modern safety.
Demonstrably? Show your data.

Colin
4/08/2011 3:53pm,
Breakfalls and rolls are properly taught and practised in lots of styles. One doesn't not need aikido to learn how to land safely and recover/move to a safer distance/reengage/whatever.

At which point did I imply that Aikido was needed?

Do you feel so threatened by the idea that there are entirely combat ineffective Aikidoka out there that could probably survive falling off the back of a truck better than your average kickboxer? I doubt it.
Therefore why would you be adverse to the idea that time is spent in MMA on breakfalling? I think there are definitely people out there training JJ and MT, who are spending little time on breakfalling. (this is especially true of JJ schools that spend the majority of their training time on the ground.) It is primarily this kind of person that I think could benefit from an hour a week of breakfalling practice.

Ignorami
4/08/2011 4:02pm,
Didn't fully appreciate this was YMAS, and have inadevertantly posted 100% serious responses. Sadly, I fear my future responses will be similarly sincere

As such, here is an amusing picture of a blender bicycle to make up for it before I go to bed.

http://bikehugger.com/images/blog/tony_kay.jpg

That's right, its a blender AND a bicycle.

DCS
4/08/2011 4:09pm,
At which point did I imply that Aikido was needed?
In the thread title and in the OP maybe?


Do you feel so threatened by the idea that there are entirely combat ineffective Aikidoka out there that could probably survive falling off the back of a truck better than your average kickboxer? I doubt it.
Ideas are not things I usally feel threatening.


Therefore why would you be adverse to the idea that time is spent in MMA on breakfalling? I think there are definitely people out there training JJ and MT, but spending little time on breakfalling. It is primarily this kind of person that I think could benefit from an hour a week of breakfalling practice.
I find 1 hour a week of breakfalling practise excessive. The niche you are targetting would be better served with 1 hour of judo practise under competent instruction. Uchikomi: ten reps, the last throwing uke, rinse and repeat. Last 15 min of randori. Shower and beers. See you next week.