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View Full Version : How we can save Aikido: An honest opinion.



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DCS
4/17/2011 10:54am,
Not counting noobs allowed to do wristlocks in gi rolling... At that phase they should be working on basics instead of pulling techniques that are usually illegal until blue.

BKR
4/17/2011 11:55am,
I doubt you would ever see him work like that. It would be cool, but the guy is in his late fifties, and gets paid to teach aikido all over the world. Why risk it? Especially when the point is to be fantastical, its aikido.

Myself, I know that for more relaistic training judo would be the best, if I wanted to stick with traditonal Japanese arts. But I like the fantasy side of aikido, its fun and intersting for me even after 20 years.

Well, I'm no aikido basher. I've worked with aikidoka who were quite skilled, had great balance, movement, etc. My judo instructor had a lot of respect for aikido, and took some important lessons from it regarding his and hence my judo training as well.

You have to look at things in context. In the context of what the founder had in mind, aikido is just fine. Judo is more "realistic", but still, very lacking in terms of the context of MMA (no striking) or "street" type self defense (no weapons, no striking, etc.) And that is OK in the context of the basic idea of Kano. Even that evolved over time.

In Judo, one gets used to hard physical contact and resisting training partners (even this depends on where and how/why one trains), and can develop a tough mental attitude, etc.

Ben

ChenPengFi
4/17/2011 12:21pm,
I know this technique. If anyone picks up on this, I'll bet it'll be the consensus that aikido gooseneck from the half guard = crappling.

Like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY67sCHBGPg&feature=related
I've actually learned quite a few nasty wristlocks in BJJ.
They are much, much worse on the ground than standing imo.

Permalost
4/17/2011 4:25pm,
Like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY67sCHBGPg&feature=related
I've actually learned quite a few nasty wristlocks in BJJ.
They are much, much worse on the ground than standing imo.
Yes, wristlocks can work on the ground. It was the half guard part I was thinking about as crappling. Note that the man in the video is not in half guard.

Colin
4/19/2011 8:29pm,
Firstly, sorry about delay - got no internet at home right now.


Yes, wristlocks can work on the ground. It was the half guard part I was thinking about as crappling. Note that the man in the video is not in half guard.

Indeed.
The Aikido system that I trained in had a set of some 12-15 techniques known inside the organisation as 'Newaza', although now that I've had a taste of ACTUAL Newaza, the best way to describe this set of Aikido techniques is the: "In case you are having a Japanese tea drinking ceremony, and the bastard across from you tries to slit your throat while you are pouring tea." techniques.

These typically mirrored the same jointlocking compliance techniques you see standing up (first through fifth form, look em up yourself) with the only major difference being that you are kneeling down when the attack starts, and you typically move through the technique via "kneewalking" which is actually more efficient than it sounds. (the kneewalking, not the technique).

This being said - I would suspect the average Aikidoka to probably fare better on the ground than your typical person un-schooled in grappling, owing to a small degree of transferability.

TL;DR version: Grappling > Crappling > Nothing

Ignorami
4/20/2011 3:12am,
We do a fair bit of that kneeling technique stuff at Aikido. As best I can figure, it's main usefulness (to us at least) is it cleans up peoples footwork, and stops them shuffling about.

Aikido technique (not the silly wristlocks, but good irimi & kuzushi) needs good committed hip movement, to provide a lot of full body power. During standing techiniques, students piss a lot of this away with shuffling and and lots of little half steps. It's hard to do that kneeling down - you have to throw your hips into every movement just to be serviceably mobile. That makes it good for forming those habits.

Also, it's difficulty forces people to prioritise their body movement. Often when standing, they concentrate too much on trying to weave and grab punches out of the air instead of "getting the **** intae him" (as the scottish might say).

As for using it for newaza? meh, it's ok as long as you stay up on your knees - it doesn't offer anything for the floor.

Matt Phillips
4/22/2011 2:46pm,
Colin, you may be interested in Delucia Aikido (Aikikenpo) which is a combination of Aikido, Satori Ryu Kenpo and Pancrase Hybrid Wrestling aka Karl Gotch Catch Wrestling.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu66es-JI8Q

Ignorami
4/22/2011 3:32pm,
He's got a 4/5 dvd set of "combat aikido" too. It's a good watch.

Matt Phillips
4/23/2011 11:38am,
He's got a 4/5 dvd set of "combat aikido" too. It's a good watch.
The clips without headgear are all from that series IIRC

Colin
5/05/2011 2:41am,
That was a good watch, thanks for the link matt, but personally, I am more interested in modern MA training - The Aikido idea was mostly about trying to find something in the system that is potentially universally useful, ie: the Ukemi.

DerAuslander
5/05/2011 3:09pm,
Ok. I'll start by stating that I have a modest experience with Aikido over many years involving training with Aikidoka of vastly different philosophical outlooks, physical abilities, and training methodologies.

I started to think about a few opinions I had read in some threads here, and about my own experiences with Aikido, and have come to the conclusion, that with no other martial art, with the possible exception of some obscure TCMA or overly acrobatic Booj Dojos, will give you the same high-level constant ukemi practice.

As I mentioned - this point has been brought up before, that ukemi in Aikido isn't only crucial to the art, it IS the art. Tori's job after all, is just a different kind of ukemi, right?

If we operate under the suspicion that Aikido is a means of dealing with Ueshiba's attacks, much like Judo is a way of dealing with Kano's attacks, we can probably surmise that Ueshiba prized (and probably sported) a very elusive fighting style, perhaps due to a very advanced Ukemi. (rolling out of the way of a strike to control the sword arm from behind, and failing good position, able to roll and gain better position again?)

If this is a plausible explanation, then perhaps modern Aikido could transition into an MMA or SD accompaniment called UKEMIDO which includes the study of MA-AIDO.

To define specifically what kind of training this should constitute, and to what amount of time the modern fighter may get value out of investing in intensive ukemi training is really a matter of discussion, a discussion I hope to encourage out of the JMA and MMA community here.

What I'm proposing is perhaps a single training session per week of standard length (1-2 hrs) dedicated entirely to breakfalling, rolling safely, learning how to roll behind someone (or indeed through them, if the technique is appropriate).

How do the other bullies feel about this?

Aikido doesn't need saving.

You do.

Colin
5/05/2011 3:28pm,
Aikido doesn't need saving.

You do.

Try reading more than one post in a thread if you have anything to actually say.
Otherwise go back to watching taekyon videos.

DCS
5/05/2011 4:08pm,
Dharma combat!!!

kismasher
5/05/2011 4:17pm,
does aikido even want to be saved? stockholm syndrome?

Permalost
5/05/2011 4:19pm,
Dharma combat!!!
Verbal aikido

Vieux Normand
5/05/2011 6:41pm,
Verbal aikido

Bit more like it: koan the barbarian.