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View Full Version : How we can save Aikido: An honest opinion.



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gregaquaman
4/15/2011 2:28pm,
Forgive me if this has been asked before, and--given the length and number of Aikido threads--it almost certainly has...but is there any footage of this being attempted/used on a noncompliant individual?

I'm aware of the theory behind the compliance: go with the technique or suffer a sprain/fracture/whatever, but has this been shown in a live-training/live-fighting situation?
You did see the brazil vid earlier in this thread?

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=105607&page=8

StepInCross
4/16/2011 6:54am,
I've been manhandled by an akidoka before. It was in a history class and we were given group projects of learning about traditional martial arts of different countries. One of the guys presenting said he was a blackbelt in aikido. I figured, I'd see for myself. He told me to put my arm forward and without skipping a beat, the guy put me in VERY deep wristlock even before my arm was hand was raised above waist level. I had to kneel from the pain. I even rolled to get out of it and told him to ease up.

Just an anecdote. Keep in mind that I have no experience whatsoever in grappling. That might explain how he basically pretzel-lized me.

Colin
4/16/2011 8:50am,
I've been manhandled by an akidoka before. It was in a history class and we were given group projects of learning about traditional martial arts of different countries. One of the guys presenting said he was a blackbelt in aikido. I figured, I'd see for myself. He told me to put my arm forward and without skipping a beat, the guy put me in VERY deep wristlock even before my arm was hand was raised above waist level. I had to kneel from the pain. I even rolled to get out of it and told him to ease up.

Just an anecdote. Keep in mind that I have no experience whatsoever in grappling. That might explain how he basically pretzel-lized me.

The technique you are describing sounds like some form of Dai-Nikkyo (spelling?) the "second form" of Aikido wristlock. This technique is commonly used by Japanese police while handcuffing, as opposed to the "Third Form" (Sankyo) style (think kimura) of handcuffing used by American Law Enforcement.

Furthermore (this is a little off topic now) my experience with Aikido jointlocks helped me understand Judo and JJ jointlocks better than I might have, if I were a fresh beginner.

DCS
4/16/2011 11:06am,
The technique you are describing sounds like some form of Dai-Nikkyo (spelling?)
Nikyo.


the "second form" of Aikido wristlock. This technique is commonly used by Japanese police while handcuffing, as opposed to the "Third Form" (Sankyo) style (think kimura) of handcuffing used by American Law Enforcement.
Sankyo is nothing like a Kimura.

Sankyo (Tissier):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEyt9NwB39o

Sankyo (Roy Dean)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlZK6qhPD2g

Standing Kimura (Parysian):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2FajIE2gHI

Standing Kimura (Grappler's Quest - go to 0:40 mark for the ouch!!!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NR1AmIsejDM

On the different handcuffing methods used by japanese and american LEO: Source, citation?

Colin
4/16/2011 11:09am,
There's no citation. It's a baseless YMAS style post.
You like to address certain parts of what I say while ignoring the rest, so how can i answer you properly?

DCS
4/16/2011 11:29am,
The part's I'm not adressing are the ones which I don't (a) disagree, (b) give a ****.

In your last post I adressed a spelling question, a technical confusion and asked you about the sources of your knowledge about japanese/american LEO handcuffing procedures.

What you felt/noticed when you switched from aikido to judo/bjj is, as much, anecdotical evidence of the degree of transferability between arts so it has to be treated as one.

If you want to elaborate about how your aikido experience helped you in judo/jj, I don't have any problem. The only problem I had with your previous post is your sankyo/kimura confusion. Everybody is entitled to their own opinions, but you don't get to make up your own facts. Sankyo is not a Kimura and this is a fact.

Colin
4/16/2011 11:34am,
Sankyo is not a Kimura
Sankyo is not a Kimura
Sankyo is not a Kimura


I'll repeat it to myself in the shower. As for where the hell did I pull that retarded statement from; haven't you ever seen kung fu movies? :P
As far as lack of education on nomenclature, sorry about that.

Vieux Normand
4/16/2011 11:35am,
By "this" you mean aikido techniques, performed by aikidoka? Can you be more especific?

Sorry for the lack of clarity: I was referring to the vid in post #173. I will look at the other vids in the thread. Thanks also for your answers, Ben, Greg, Step and Colin. When I'm off work, I'll search this out properly.

DCS
4/16/2011 11:40am,
I'll repeat it to myself in the shower.
Video pls.


As for where the hell did I pull that retarded statement from; haven't you ever seen kung fu movies? :P
Kung fu movies? Yes, of course, Jungfrukällan is my favourite one.


As far as lack of education on nomenclature, sorry about that.
No problem, you guys in academia sometimes make mistakes too.

Colin
4/16/2011 11:48am,
To address the topic of Aikido transferable techniques into groundfighting, last night while rolling (BJJ with GI) I was rolling with another beginner (even wetter behind the ears than me, and a good 5-6 years younger) and he told me that he had a hapkido background (he wasn't arrogant or anything like that about it, the guys in my gym are pretty straight forward with each other about previous experience) and I mentioned my Aikido background, while I was grabbing his bent and turtled "t-rex" arm, turning the wristlock into a Nikyo, my left arm controlling his left wrist, and my right arm (full grip with thumb too) hooking into the crook of his elbow, mimicking a grounded version of a first form type compliance lock (I lost the wrist control to gain the elbow control). I did this from half guard.

An interesting Aikido/BJJ experience :D

Oonjuk
4/16/2011 12:15pm,
To address the topic of Aikido transferable techniques into groundfighting....
An interesting Aikido/BJJ experience :D
We were doing this drill in BJJ this Wednesday.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCKmndt38qU
I haven't learned how to do a chicken wing wristlock properly yet, so I was naturally doing an Ikyo wristlock to finish instead.
The BJJ club president encourages me to utilize my training from Aikido into BJJ. So far, I've found rolls, ikyo, and nikyo from Aikido transferable to groundfighting. Anybody tried sankyo in groundfighting?

DCS
4/16/2011 12:17pm,
Anybody tried sankyo in groundfighting?
For defending RNC & harness attempts.

Oonjuk
4/16/2011 12:22pm,
For defending RNC & harness attempts.
Thanks! Why haven't I thought about that. *facepalm*

BSONE
4/16/2011 6:00pm,
Any time I see someone labelled as "shihan" I cringe.

Some nice ukemi there, and interesting movements, some of which looked they might have some practical value. Aikido has some good stuff in it, but as in this video, some of it is kind of fantastical. I'd like to see him work with someone who can really punch/strike. He has nice looking tai sabaki.

Note, I'm not jamming on the "shihan", just giving my honest opinion.

Ben

I know what you mean about the "Shihan" labell, it gets thrown around way too much, especially in the fringe aikido community. Tissier is legit though, at least as far as hombu aikikai is concerned.

BSONE
4/16/2011 6:15pm,
Some nice ukemi there, and interesting movements, some of which looked they might have some practical value. Aikido has some good stuff in it, but as in this video, some of it is kind of fantastical. I'd like to see him work with someone who can really punch/strike. He has nice looking tai sabaki.

Ben

I doubt you would ever see him work like that. It would be cool, but the guy is in his late fifties, and gets paid to teach aikido all over the world. Why risk it? Especially when the point is to be fantastical, its aikido.

Myself, I know that for more relaistic training judo would be the best, if I wanted to stick with traditonal Japanese arts. But I like the fantasy side of aikido, its fun and intersting for me even after 20 years.

Permalost
4/17/2011 10:39am,
To address the topic of Aikido transferable techniques into groundfighting, last night while rolling (BJJ with GI) I was rolling with another beginner (even wetter behind the ears than me, and a good 5-6 years younger) and he told me that he had a hapkido background (he wasn't arrogant or anything like that about it, the guys in my gym are pretty straight forward with each other about previous experience) and I mentioned my Aikido background, while I was grabbing his bent and turtled "t-rex" arm, turning the wristlock into a Nikyo, my left arm controlling his left wrist, and my right arm (full grip with thumb too) hooking into the crook of his elbow, mimicking a grounded version of a first form type compliance lock (I lost the wrist control to gain the elbow control). I did this from half guard.

An interesting Aikido/BJJ experience :D

I know this technique. If anyone picks up on this, I'll bet it'll be the consensus that aikido gooseneck from the half guard = crappling.