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arg
11/17/2002 9:45pm,
Gracie Jiu Jitsu:


"The Gracies are the premier (McInstructors) of Brazilian Jui Jitsu and have done a tremendous job promoting their art in the NHB arena. If you are interested in sport based competitive fighting.

GJJ falls short on the street. If you carry weapons you are at a serious disadvantage since many of the moves allow you to be disarmed while your applying your GJJ techniques. Multifights also present a serious challenge to GJJ since it primarily is designed for one on one competitive sport fighting.

For competition (and remember even the NHB events have rules, a ref and a controlled environment none of which you have controlled for you on the street) training in GJJ is a fine choice if you want a good workout and want to be a competitive grappler." (If you want fighting it is not GJJ!)

Michael
11/17/2002 10:14pm,
and?

DCM Fighter
11/17/2002 10:20pm,
I see more and more people seeing the truth about grappling and it's nice to see that not everyone is brainwashed. It's fun and good to know so if someone does try and take you down you have a better chance at staying on your feet, or getting back up if you do fall.

Nihilanthic
11/17/2002 11:09pm,
Knowledge of grappling is just one part of the issue. You can use it to put them down, and either stay standing, mount them, or pull guard. There are LOTS of ways to put them down...

Not all grapplers pull guard, all the time, arg. Pulling guard one on one, if you know you can get an armbar, triangle, or whatever, QUICKLY, is a valid techinque.

Now, the other things you can do is trip/takedown/throw/spike/whatever and headstomp them, or mount then and do what you want, or run off.

If YOU get put down, guard is the best thing you can do, unless you enjoy getting mounted. From there you can reverse, sweep, or pull a sub. What you do with your grappling knowledge is up to you, but you seem to only focus on the wrong things to do.

<Me> John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? <John> *smacks me*
<John> I'd have to smack you sometime...

DCM Fighter
11/18/2002 12:12am,
How is pulling guard a 'good' thing to do when all the things that can happen if tied up with a guy too long? Using your legs and arms to keep space and hit to create distance to get to your feet is the best thing to do. Just because you're on your back doesn't mean you have to go to the guard in a one on one fight. Plus how do you know for sure the guy's alone, or he doesn't have a weapon? Those are big points not to just go to your back.

Nihilanthic
11/18/2002 1:57am,
My point was that if you are absolutly certain it is one on one (like in a pro fight, NOT the street) that its okay to do if you know you can sub them from your guard quickly.

The average joe on the street doesn't know **** about it and would get submitted very fast.

If you're on your back, and they are about to get on you, what else is there to do put use a guard?

<Me> John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? <John> *smacks me*
<John> I'd have to smack you sometime...

DCM Fighter
11/18/2002 1:59am,
Yeah in an NHB fight it's ok, but even in NHB it's better to be on top, of course it depends on if your guard is better than your mount. Yeah the average guy on the street won't know much, but there's so many people who know this stuff now adays you never know.

Nihilanthic
11/18/2002 2:39am,
Nope, you don't... GnP is a lot faster and more idiot proof IMHO, and in a street confrontation you're a lot more likely to take HIM down than get put down yourself, unless you're suckerpunched. Best idea is to keep some friends around of your own.

Hell, why not hang out with your buds from the gym/dojo/school/whatever?



<Me> John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? <John> *smacks me*
<John> I'd have to smack you sometime...

kropotkin
11/18/2002 3:41am,
dont dismiss grappling for self defense.
bjj has numerous submissions from standing,as well as standing chokes from behind while you incapacitate your oppenents' ability to use his hands. in this position you can pivot 360 degrees looking around,while using the guy as a human shield.

and if you do go to the ground the kneemount allows you to pummel and or disarm your oppenent while looking up and turning 360 for assesing potential attackers.its esay to get up and run from knee mount too.

grappling is better to do against some people than to try to box them.
and dont forget most of this street fight type stuff is the minority of self defense situations-its somewhat hollywood. rather, most people are attacked by people thay know, often people they know well. that means alot of close quarters stuffin like enclosed spaces/indoors.
also for women the guard is necesary anti rape homework for sure.
in the end bjj is just one piece in a puzzle,but its highly modifiable and some people have even developed bjj modified for offensive knife and stick stuff. and none of this is to go into how devastatingly effective a hard throw can be on your opponent while leaving you on your feet.

PeedeeShaolin
11/18/2002 4:10am,
Most of the people that dismiss grappling for self defense either haven't trained very long or are brainwashed.

In multiple attacker scenarios ANYTHING that his buddies can do to you on the ground they can also do to you while you are standing. Against multiple atackers you will most likely be put on the floor and you will be very thankful you know how to fight and get out from that situation.

Do you think its better to try and HIT a bigger person? Do you think YOU are going to hit HIM first? Then YOU are attacking HIM. HE would need to defend himself from YOU!

What do you think is going to happen in a real fight? You think your going to stay on your toes and "Hit and move"? You live in dreamland. Your going to be rushed and swarmed by his friends. The only thing that would stop you from falling to the floor is a VERY strong base in standing grappling and the only thing that will get you back to your feet is a knowledge of escapes and reversals.

Has anyone here ever competed in Boxing? Kyokushinkai? How many nockouts do you see in the first few moments? Even when its a smaller, inexperienced person against a better fighter it still goes to the clinch.

Do you think your opponent is going to grab he collor of your shirt and wait for you to kick him in the groin and then pull off a wrist lock while yelling "Kiai!"?

Nonsense.

You must think that Dan Inosanto, Burton Richardson, Bill Wallace, Bob Wall etc have no idea how to fight because all of these men have spent years in BJJ because of its efectiveness. These are men that have trained longer than you have and have far more experience and credibility.

Berserk411
11/18/2002 5:27am,
I find it hysterical how ppl bash bjj for not being effective against 5 ppl. I don't think anything is effective against more then mabey 2-3 ppl and thats be overly generous.

Where do you guys get into fights where you get to use wepons such as staffs, knifes, or whatever the hell else you train with???

Don't say bars because if you did you'd all be in jail. The truth is the majority of you have never been in many fights. I've been in a few altercations myself but rarely have any included wepons and the few times I've had knives pulled out on me I've chosen to run rather or calm the situation down rather then "unarm" them and punish them with groin kicks and eye pokes.

In 1 on 1 situations BJJ is by far the best. In these multiple attacker situations I'd have to say that no matter what you train eventually its going to be a loose, loose situation.

Can any of you give me an example of when you beat multiple attackers or unarmed some would be robbers or assailents?

DCM Fighter
11/18/2002 6:06am,
Many people do carry weapons. One of my instructors almost got stabbed with a pencil when he was a bouncer and took a guy down to control him. The pencil when through his shirt and missed going into him lucklily, and then he pounded the guy until he wasn't a threat any more. It does happen. I never liked the knee mount anyway. Your support leg can be taken out from under you and your groin is right there to be crushed. That will be enough to make someone change position enough for someone who knows a little grappling to get out of the position. Knowing grappling can help beat a grappler with strikes. People can also grab onto you and use a knife too. While you're grappling, the guy can latch on to you and stab you repeatedly so you can't get away before being badly injured.

I can give a few examples of when my instructors fought and defended themselves against more than one person. It is possable. You have to be aggresive and go after them; constantly moving, and try and escape when you can.

Gezere
11/18/2002 7:35am,
As we round this corner yet again!!!


>also for women the guard is necesary anti rape homework for sure

NONSENSE!!! I hope you do not teach womens self defense!!!

>Do you think its better to try and HIT a bigger person?

NOPE. I find it even worse to grapple with one as well. Like you say what you can do to them they can do to you. If the person at the advantage of strenght then it is not a good idea either way. And because a guy is bigger and stronger does NOT mean he doesn't have skill,speed, or technique.


>What do you think is going to happen in a real fight? You think your going to stay on your toes and "Hit and move"?

Actually judging from the posts here I doubt many have an extensive knowledge of a "real" fight. Most just regurgitate what they see on the net.


>Can any of you give me an example of when you beat multiple attackers or unarmed some would be robbers or assailents?

Still got a copy of a few blotter reports (phorst should know what that is) and one police report when I was attacked by two kids with a knife (self defense and I had a lawsuit filed against me for assualting a minor!?!?!)



Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invinsible Asia) Emporer of Baji!!! THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE AGAINST THE UNITED AUSSIE FRONT!!

DCM Fighter
11/18/2002 7:53am,
That's very true Asia especially about the part about a bigger guy possably not having the ability to strike fast or accuretly. It's pretty anoying to have to keep repeating myself for the people who just don't understand.

Berserk411
11/18/2002 8:16am,
Asia, I see you German, therefore it is pointless to even argue with you.

Gezere
11/18/2002 8:46am,
I AM NOT GERMAN!!!

Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invinsible Asia) Emporer of Baji!!! THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE AGAINST THE UNITED AUSSIE FRONT!!