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dwkfym
2/09/2011 10:23am,
Sooo... I'm in the process of becoming a permanent resident. I'm saving up right now to buy a shotgun and a handgun for my first pieces.

I was originally thinking to get the XD9C, but I hear the M&P is awesome. I haven't shot the M&P yet but it looks promising.

I had a question. Anyone handled the thumb safety version of this weapon? Also, you may know that if it comes with the thumb safety, you lose the magazine safety. I'd like to have both. What are the downsides of having the magazine safety? It seems to be useful for when you have your weapon taken from you. Furthermore, it will be an extra peace of mind for when I have kids.

Any other review of this weapon will be appreciated.

Please don't comment about how I should get the kids educated so they don't **** around with guns and how they should know how it works anyhow. I plan to do that already.

Lord Skeletor
2/09/2011 4:35pm,
Eh...I wouldn't get all wrapped around the axle when it comes to a weapon with a true mechanical safety. Rudimentary gun safety should cover kids and guns. Simply lock it up and keep the magazine/ammo separate from where you store/lock it up. However, if your kids are ingenious and kind of likely to figure out how to a) unlock/defeat your storage unit/safe/locker b) figure out where you keep your ammo---they're not going to be deterred for very long with something as simple as a mechanical safety.

You're going to be fine until your child starts to become ambulatory, and since you don't already have kids and they are a future consideration---you're likely going to have another gun or possibly have traded/exchanged for a different gun by the time your child is born/grows up.

Arm yourself with a good locking safe or biometric gun storage unit...and train your kids at a VERY young age with constant reinforcement that guns are dangerous if misused and that they should be respected. Most gun accidents with children occur when overprotective parents put the gun in the child's line of sight and when asked---say, "This is for adults only---You can't touch." Well...congrats on making that gun the holy grail of getting fucked with by a kid. It becomes this magical item to **** with when parents aren't around and an object of ultimate desire. However...the sooner you demystify the thing, let them shoot it, explain the dangers---it soon becomes a hammer, a wrench or some other uninteresting object.

As for personal protection, disengaging mechanical safeties are fine-motor skill tasks that are difficult to manipulate under life and death stress. I would recommend against any weapon with one. If you're that freaked out by possible accidental discharges, get a Glock with a "New York I or II" style trigger or a DAO (Double Action Only) trigger. I just think that you're probably going to wish that you didn't in the long run. Worse comes to worst--you can always replace the trigger spring in the Glock for about $5.00 when you overcome your apprehensions. Magazine safeties are also strange---again, I'm not sure if I would want a gun to deactivate itself under any circumstances. If it were to fail--you could end up with a neutered gun in a life-or-death situation.

Adding complex parts like magazine disconnects (and relying on them for added safety), only increases the numbers of moving parts within your firearm and statistically increases the chance for the firearm to fail. If you keep your finger off the trigger and keep the gun pointed in a safe direction at all times you will have little (if anything) to worry about. Most guns have several built-in safety devices and features, such as trigger safeties, drop/disconnect safeties, hammer/firing pin blocks, etc. You're not going to get a discharge unless a discharge is what you want.

If you won't be swayed, roll with guns with definitive mechanical safeties, such as:

Heckler & Koch USP
Beretta 92 F/S
Taurus 92 (Economy Gun)
Bersa Mini-Thunder (Economy Gun)
Smith & Wesson Tactical (TSW) Series 40xx, 45xx, 9mm
Browning BDM

Not sure I'd roll with any variant of the M&P until some of the kinks are worked out with them. I'm not talking out of my ass here. I'm an armorer on the M&P platform and I steer clear of them due to the fact that I'm always getting calls to work on one. The Springfield XD platform is technically okay and works under most circumstances...however its soft-spot has always been its cheap and horribly manufactured magazines which fail *all the damn time*.

At any rate...good luck and let us know what you choose to roll with.

dwkfym
2/10/2011 10:50am,
I started shooting with Beretta 92, 1911, and Browning type pistols so I'm just not used to these glock type action pistols.

As you read one of the concerns I had was having children. I plan to take them to the range regularly, have them learn how to fire and handle a weapon at a young age. However, what I'm really worried about is a very narrow range of age; too young to go shooting but old enough to be mischevious.. but whatever. I think I'm overthinking this. Just as how I should train myself to handle and re-holster a mech. safety-less weapon, I should just be on top of this and make sure nothing stupid happens.

Another concern I had was the whole "if your gun gets taken away from you" thing. I keep hearing about how cops die from their own guns, and how cops save themselves by doing last minute mag drops or having their piece on safe, and it gives them a split second to deploy their secondary sidearm.

What I really liked about the M&P was that I can add and remove thumb and magazine safeties. What specifically should I be worried about the problems in the M&P? i was reading on how the earlier (pre 2010) ones had problems with their extractors and such (I'm no gunsmith by any means). If I don't go with the XD or M&P (and I can't seem to shoot a glock very well) I'm probably going to go smaller in size to a Sig p232. Is there a good aftermarket option for XD magazines?

Thanks for the help. I found advice gun forums sometimes too swayed by marketing and general opinions of other people. (that makes a lot of sense that I'm on bullshido instead. lol)

Lord Skeletor
2/10/2011 9:21pm,
I started shooting with Beretta 92, 1911, and Browning type pistols so I'm just not used to these glock type action pistols.

As you read one of the concerns I had was having children. I plan to take them to the range regularly, have them learn how to fire and handle a weapon at a young age. However, what I'm really worried about is a very narrow range of age; too young to go shooting but old enough to be mischevious.. but whatever. I think I'm overthinking this. Just as how I should train myself to handle and re-holster a mech. safety-less weapon, I should just be on top of this and make sure nothing stupid happens.

Another concern I had was the whole "if your gun gets taken away from you" thing. I keep hearing about how cops die from their own guns, and how cops save themselves by doing last minute mag drops or having their piece on safe, and it gives them a split second to deploy their secondary sidearm.

What I really liked about the M&P was that I can add and remove thumb and magazine safeties. What specifically should I be worried about the problems in the M&P? i was reading on how the earlier (pre 2010) ones had problems with their extractors and such (I'm no gunsmith by any means). If I don't go with the XD or M&P (and I can't seem to shoot a glock very well) I'm probably going to go smaller in size to a Sig p232. Is there a good aftermarket option for XD magazines?

Thanks for the help. I found advice gun forums sometimes too swayed by marketing and general opinions of other people. (that makes a lot of sense that I'm on bullshido instead. lol)


We'll give you the "no bullshit", honest assessment here, bro. Unlike sites like AR15.com which regularly stifle and silence any sort of poor performance reviews by products provided by their sponsors...here, you are going to hear the truth, whether it be pretty or not.

I like the accuracy potential of the M&P, but until they fix all of the issues with the pistol, I'm uncomfortable using one. Let's face it...we're all susceptible to a good marketer/salesperson who puts on an impressive display and throws a good sales pitch. I'm an armorer for more weapon systems than I can easily count. I've been doing gun repair for 20 years. I'm also the chief armorer for my department. I'd like to think that my opinions on weapon systems are directly supported by the most important proof possible---actually being out on the range with the guns and putting them through the paces.

Twice a year, I'm a lead instructor at a regional law enforcement academy with 40-65 students who represent over 48 law enforcement agencies. We see the full spectrum of handguns, shotguns, and carbines...the good and the bad almost constantly...and it's the same issues with the same platforms.

If you want a gun with a mechanical safety---my only warning to you is to train with it. TRAIN, TRAIN, TRAIN. Under life and and death stress---we all fall victim to a sort of tunnel vision and fine motor skills and our ability to manipulate small, mechanical objects go right out the window. You certainly get over it by training hardcore so it becomes ingrained, muscle-memory. Just realize that it's going to take some work.

Sig makes great weapons...and I'm sure you'll be happy if you chose to go that route. Unfortunately, I'm unsure if anyone makes quality XD mags that you were asking about.

Robstafarian
2/11/2011 12:29am,
If you want a gun with a mechanical safety---my only warning to you is to train with it. TRAIN, TRAIN, TRAIN. Under life and and death stress---we all fall victim to a sort of tunnel vision and fine motor skills and our ability to manipulate small, mechanical objects go right out the window. You certainly get over it by training hardcore so it becomes ingrained, muscle-memory. Just realize that it's going to take some work.
I am quoting this because it bears repeating, and Skeletor already said it very well. Every time I do an administrative load on the range, I engage the manual safety so that I must disengage it (using my shooting grip) before taking the first shot. This rote linking of the two actions is invaluable.

I also practice drawing from my holster to my shooting grip (in other words, coordination with my left hand), sometimes disengaging the manual safety as part of the draw. This is easily done once you've trained your thumb to find the safety. Get some snap caps so you can practice drawing and dry firing. Ensuring that the trigger moves and the hammer falls is vital to training mid-draw safety manipulation. Knowing that the trigger has moved and the hammer has fallen every time you've utilized said technique will give you the confidence to use it when it matters most.

Competence breeds confidence, just make sure competence always comes first.

Lord Skeletor
2/11/2011 6:48am,
Competence breeds confidence, just make sure competence always comes first.

Very well said. Anything worth doing well...is worth training for/in.

dwkfym
2/23/2011 10:39am,
Thanks
I'm kinda derailing my own thread here, but anyone have had any experience with the Daewoo DP51? Reviews seem good, military issue piece, thought it would be bulky for CWP purposes but seems to have a good price point.

Lord Skeletor
2/24/2011 9:46pm,
Thanks
I'm kinda derailing my own thread here, but anyone have had any experience with the Daewoo DP51? Reviews seem good, military issue piece, thought it would be bulky for CWP purposes but seems to have a good price point.

On other sites I actually get called names for supporting Korean products. They make good televisions and yeah...some good guns. I like the DP51. It's got some interesting features and it's fairly reliable (although I don't see many anymore). The one thing that I'm not a fan of is it's trigger pull, but oh well. Not sure if it was the variant I was thinking of, but the ones that we had at the store had a trigger-activated decocker-thingie which was pretty cool. Again...I haven't messed with one in a while, but from what I remember (we rented the things at the range), they worked and shot pretty well. You might have some issues finding a holster/parts for it, though...as it's kind of an uncommon platform.

IMightBeWrong
2/25/2011 11:06pm,
Man, I'd be willing to bet that the last time I saw a Daewoo in person I wasn't even a teenager yet. The Tri-Action was something I thought was really cool as a kid. I don't know if I'd like it nowadays. When I was younger I couldn't care less how crisp a trigger was, but I'd be willing to guess that LS is right on the money on it. With a complicated action like the Tri-Action, I'd guess it would be pretty stagey as opposed to smooth and the Single Action pull would likely be long.

My preferred action is a Double/Single as long as the Single isn't too long (unless it's a Beretta, I'll tolerate it's crap reset because I just like it). You said you were fairly familiar with the Beretta, so why not go for something in the same ballpark?

dwkfym
4/05/2011 1:48pm,
Zaohu and Lord,
I think my first handgun is going to be a Stoeger cougar in .40SW. It felt very nice in my hand. I haven't had the chance to fire it (all the local ranges is full of glock/sig/1911/XDs) but I'll take the plunge.

Before I move to California, I do plan on buying a DP51 also. Gotta have a 9mm piece.. both handguns are not on the list in California so once I move there I'll not be able to obtain them.

As far as the DP51 hardware goes, I think you could get a lot of holsters and such made for SW 59 series handguns.

Thanks for the tips everybody. My goal is really to purchase a issue-worthy-reliable, decently accurate handgun. And then I'll move onto one or two pocket sized handguns.

IMightBeWrong
4/06/2011 10:03pm,
Buying a gun to take to California is like buying a hooker to take to Sunday Mass. All of us Arizonans would be more than happy to have you, though.

dwkfym
4/06/2011 10:08pm,
lol. And a FL CWP would be good there too.

Fortunately there is nothing illegal about doing what I am doing. But once I move to CA, I can't buy the guns that are "off list"

dwkfym
4/15/2011 10:21am,
As you may already know, my first purchase ended up being a Cougar 8040F.

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=105721


Now.. my next two or three handguns are going to be as following
DP51 (I want this handgun for personal reasons)
Another duty capable 9mm, pref in the "subcompact" size, or a slim single stack 9mm that conceals decently. I'm thinking sig/kahr/ruger here.
a pocket gun - thinking a p3at. This would be mainly for the wife, who will probably never carry anything bigger than this since she can't hide anything else.

Any opinions will be appreciated!

dwkfym
4/19/2011 7:14pm,
On a side note, I recently read that replacing the XD's factory magazine springs for AGP +20 springs fixes the magazine problems. No firsthand experience myself.

hudson69
4/20/2011 3:54pm,
Go with the XD9 subcompact. I have owned both and the Springfield offered better features: grip safety, trigger safety (whatever), LCI that can be felt and the grip doesn't feel swollen like the Smith does.