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GoForward
1/24/2011 10:41am,
Would people respect Wing Tsun (VT, WC, etc) more if they just came out and admitted that _ing _hun is an expression of Southern Chinese culture and not a modern fighting system? You go and learn about the culture surrounding the development of Wing Tsun (VT, WC, etc) and why it was so readily useful back in the days of Boxer Rebellion, Beimo fights etc, but its more like taking history course with a work-out, than a modern fighting system.

As opposed to trying to making claims such as:

*caution...clicking on the link will send to a page of the deadly*
http://www.sifualexrichter.com/sifu-alex-richters-blog/2010/11/16/my-si-fus-recent-editorial-about-why-we-dont-do-mma-in-wt.html

Just curious if people would respect TMA's if they just came out and said that: if you want to learn to fight, just go to your local mma gym. Why would you learn a 200 year old system to learn to fight?

I'm a former chunner who enjoyed taking the system for something to do as a hobby, especially when the people around me were also not taking it too seriously. Some history, some culture, a bit of a work out, with some self-defense thrown in, it was cheap to learn it and it was better than nothing at all and i couldn't afford most of the higher end MT, or BJJ schools. I left once i could afford to go to a better school and quit the chun community altogether cause the attitudes suck ballz.

I used the chun as an example as that is my TMA that i studied in the past. That and they have apparently a reputation for claiming that it works on the street and it is very uber-deadly on these forums, or something ;)

So would your respect TMA's more if they were just more honest about what it is they taught? Would you consider taking a class once a week to learn more about the culture of whatever modern fighting style you study (i.e. some of modern boxing is derived from FMA's, throws in Sanda are derived from Shuai Jiao).

maofas
1/24/2011 10:55am,
Just curious if people would respect TMA's if they just came out and said that: if you want to learn to fight, just go to your local mma gym. Why would you learn a 200 year old system to learn to fight?

Here's a question for you: would you respec TMAs more if I kicked you in your head?

Seriously, so I can't be accused of trolling in newbietown:

I understand you are full of enthusiasm having quit your chun school and now training something you like much better, but your attitude is incredibly arrogant. Yes there are lots of shitty TMA schools, thank you for bringing this to our attention. You, however, are not the world and can only speak for your own experience.


Would you consider taking a class once a week to learn more about the culture of whatever modern fighting style you study (i.e. some of modern boxing is derived from FMA's, throws in Sanda are derived from Shuai Jiao).

Good lord, so you think if you entered a Shuai Jiao competition you'd just destroy everyone with your elite mma takedown skills?

Southpaw
1/24/2011 11:02am,
Just curious if people would respect TMA's if they just came out and said that: if you want to learn to fight, just go to your local mma gym. Why would you learn a 200 year old system to learn to fight?

Just curious if you have any idea how old boxing and wrestling are?

Rivington
1/24/2011 11:05am,
(i.e. some of modern boxing is derived from FMA's, throws in Sanda are derived from Shuai Jiao).

Man, if hitting people with sticks or grabbing a foe by his jacket and throwing him to the ground worked in real life, those techniques would be in the UFC, right?

Kovacs
1/24/2011 11:11am,
Op, I see what you're getting at but a lot of TMA's are useful, I think you mean esoteric arts that pretend to be badass or simply ineffective arts that pretend to be badass. Stick with the Chun on this one.

Also how is boxing derived from FMAs?

It is Fake
1/24/2011 11:19am,
Would people respect Wing Tsun (VT, WC, etc) more if they just came out and admitted that _ing _hun is an expression of Southern Chinese culture and not a modern fighting system? You go and learn about the culture surrounding the development of Wing Tsun (VT, WC, etc) and why it was so readily useful back in the days of Boxer Rebellion, Beimo fights etc, but its more like taking history course with a work-out, than a modern fighting system.

As opposed to trying to making claims such as:

*caution...clicking on the link will send to a page of the deadly* Modern? Define Modern. Muay Thai, Wrestling and Boxing are relatively old. As people point out BJJ=Basically Just Judo so it is a modern interpretation of an old art. Judo is an modern interpretation Of Japanese Jiu Jitsu. When I say modern they both fall into that 200 year range you mentioned. Also, the Boxer Rebellion failed so, that isn't a selling point IMO.

http://www.muaythai-fighting.com/the-history-of-muay-thai.html
Muay Thai: 1584

http://iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/spring03/bueneventura/history.htm
Boxing: 1681 first recorded match.

http://www.wrestlegirl.com/jhistory.htm
Wrestling: 708BC.




I'm a former chunner who enjoyed taking the system for something to do as a hobby, especially when the people around me were also not taking it too seriously. Some history, some culture, a bit of a work out, with some self-defense thrown in, it was cheap to learn it and it was better than nothing at all and i couldn't afford most of the higher end MT, or BJJ schools. I left once i could afford to go to a better school and quit the chun community altogether cause the attitudes suck ballz.
Yes, we see this a bunch. Boxing and Judo are fairly cheap so, this is just an excuse. Have fun with what you do, but please don't raise the money issue. I did the same thing when I learned Kung Fu. You had your mind set on learning Chinese culture which, unless you learned it in China or a Native, was probably a bastardized version of their culture.




So would your respect TMA's more if they were just more honest about what it is they taught? Would you consider taking a class once a week to learn more about the culture of whatever modern fighting style you study (i.e. some of modern boxing is derived from FMA's, throws in Sanda are derived from Shuai Jiao). Teach people how to fight or admit you are a modern wushu school for exercise.

Esoteric? Really? Come on TMA is fine.

GoForward
1/24/2011 11:28am,
Just curious if you have any idea how old boxing and wrestling are? Well, boxing even a hundred years ago vs. today is a very different system. Guru Inosanto talked about how Filipino empty-hand influenced western boxing. Cus D'Amato even learned from him. And while wrestling dates back to ancient greece, it has also evolved over the ages to something different than what it was a couple thousand years ago.

Largely, TMA's in America don't evolve and they don't want to, they preserve the native system. Which, again, is the question. If they just admitted it, and didn't try to sell you on how deadly it is and can't be used in the ring/cage, would you respect them more? Would you be interested in seeing what these system USED to be like before they evolved/influenced modern fighting systems?
(i.e. learning boxing in the days of Marquess of Queensberry rules, study kyokushin to learn more about K-1 kickboxing, etc).


Also, the Boxer Rebellion failed so, that isn't a selling point IMO.lolz. Good point.


Yes, we see this a bunch. Boxing and Judo are fairly cheap so, this is just an excuse. Have fun with what you do, but please don't raise the money issue.Well stated on the money issue. Sadly, there really wasn't any boxing or judo near where i lived at time. Judo would have been my preference.


Also how is boxing derived from FMAs? Dan Inosanto had a vid out that showed how there was an exchange of information between FMA's and western boxers back after the military went to the Philippines. I wish i could find it. Showed the diff between the current western boxing guard and the old marquess of queensbury guard etc.

Permalost
1/24/2011 11:31am,
Op, I see what you're getting at but a lot of TMA's are useful, I think you mean esoteric arts that pretend to be badass or simply ineffective arts that pretend to be badass. Stick with the Chun on this one.

Also how is boxing derived from FMAs?
Not derived from, but some will tell you that it influenced boxing. During the US occupation of the Philippines, American boxers in the Philippines noticed details about the Filipino fighting methods compared to the boxing of their day (back when boxing used a longer, lower guard; a fencing-like stance; and an upright posture). FMAs tend to use a tighter and higher guard, evade with the head, and use short hooking motions derived from reverse grip knife fighting. They also claim that Filipino influence wasn't really noticed because Filipino boxers weren't always identified as such in the West. For example, champion Ceferino Garcia was announced as a Puerto Rican, probably because the Anglo announcer saw a short, dark, black haired guy and made an ignorant assumption.

Rivington
1/24/2011 11:37am,
And while wrestling dates back to ancient greece, it has also evolved over the ages to something different than what it was a couple thousand years ago.


There are many different styles and rule-sets for various wrestling games, and variations using jackets, belts, etc. but if you did something like this:

YouTube - Reverse body lifts (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsI7neOjOh8)

in front of a modern Senegalese wrestler and an ancient Greek and some corn-fed big boy from Oklahoma and Abraham Lincoln and a fourteenth century Viking, they'd all recognize it and likely know some twist on doing the move.

GoForward
1/24/2011 11:39am,
Good lord, so you think if you entered a Shuai Jiao competition you'd just destroy everyone with your elite mma takedown skills?

Um, No. That wasn't the point, nor am i insinuating such. Especially if the competition is in China :)


I think you mean esoteric arts that pretend to be badass or simply ineffective arts that pretend to be badass.
Yes.

Thanks for the clarification, Permalost.

It is Fake
1/24/2011 11:40am,
Well, boxing even a hundred years ago vs. today is a very different system. Guru Inosanto talked about how Filipino empty-hand influenced western boxing. Cus D'Amato even learned from him. And while wrestling dates back to ancient greece, it has also evolved over the ages to something different than what it was a couple thousand years ago. Go read your OP. Your argument wasn't about evolution it was about old vs. New. Now that it turned out there are arts that are old you bring up evolution. This is why some TMAs and TMAers get no respect. You and they move the goalposts.



Largely, TMA's in America don't evolve and they don't want to, they preserve the native system. Which, again, is the question. If they just admitted it, and didn't try to sell you on how deadly it is and can't be used in the ring/cage, would you respect them more? Would you be interested in seeing what these system USED to be like before they evolved/influenced modern fighting systems?Yes, we know things evolve and now it isn't just America that doesn't allow arts to evolve. China stifled their arts all by themselves. Do I need to get the websites of the hundreds of Chunning schools that look just like their American Counterparts?

Esoteric is semantics as many people feel TMA is a waste because of the esoteric claims and practices.

M1K3
1/24/2011 11:50am,
The biggest influence on the changing style of boxing is the changing of the rules. Removing throws changed the style. Removing the ability to grab your opponent and hit him changed the style. Adding gloves changed the style. Timed rounds changed the styles.

All of the changes in style were mostly due to changes in the rules.

Pretty much the same with grappling. Different rules will mean different techniques. For example the reverse body lift example is a great Greco move but not as effective in Freestyle where your opponent can grab your legs.

The styles change to adapt to the rules.

GoForward
1/24/2011 11:50am,
Wasn't moving the goal posts. I don't consider "boxing" a hundred years ago to be "boxing" today. However, there are some forms of martial arts that are exactly how they were 200+ years ago with no change or evolution. Its nice for history, exercise, a hobby. But would you respect them more if they just stated such as opposed to trying to sell you that they are something that they are not (modern fighting systems)?

Personally, and my main motivation for the query, was I was happy with my experience cause i knew what i was getting out of it and i had no illusions about it. But i see a lot of angry people, now adays, coming away from TMA's so i was wondering if its a notion of they thought they were genuinely learning to fight and they weren't, or something else. Again, would people here respect TMA's more if there wasnt this illusion *cough* kool-aid *cough* that is often associated with TMAs?

It is Fake
1/24/2011 12:03pm,
Wasn't moving the goal posts.


Yes, you are:

Just curious if people would respect TMA's if they just came out and said that: if you want to learn to fight, just go to your local mma gym. Why would you learn a 200 year old system to learn to fight?
What we pointed out is that there are arts over 200 years old still being practiced. So, yes people do want to learn old systems. The problem is certain arts do not want to practice ALIVE and adapt.



I don't consider "boxing" a hundred years ago to be "boxing" today. Irrelevant to your original argument. No one does even the chun isn't the same.


However, there are some forms of martial arts that are exactly how they were 200+ years ago with no change or evolution. Actually, that is what you think. Chun has evolved the contact and training stagnated. More was added and sparring was removed. They don't claim to be modern fighting systems. They don't sell them as modern fighting systems. They sell them as older is better and culture laden arts.

maofas
1/24/2011 12:22pm,
Um, No. That wasn't the point, nor am i insinuating such.

You used it as an example of TMA that modern arts evolved from in the same post (hell, same paragraph) you suggested TMA is only good for cultural value and should just admit as much, meanwhile MMA, kickboxing, etc. are for really learning how to fight. You explicitly stated so.

So if you can't beat a bunch of TMAers in a contest of takedowns (which you presumably train, since it's one of the most important facets of mma), where does that leave you?

GoForward
1/24/2011 12:38pm,
Clarification:
Why would you learn a 200 year old system with little change or evolution to learn to fight?

Albeit, boxing and wrestling have been around forever but continue to change to become something entirely new based on the rules, environment etc. People just choose to continue to call it "boxing". Again, i'm not considering these to be "older" martial arts and its not an old vs. new argument i'm trying to bring to the table.


The problem is certain arts do not want to practice ALIVE and adapt.
Agreed.
But is there really a "problem" if the instructors of these arts just came out and stated such as opposed to trying to create some illusion about what your learning from them?


They don't sell them as modern fighting systems. They sell them as older is better and culture laden arts.
Oh, now, were going to have to agree to disagree on this part. Developed by ancient fighter, and trained by modern fighters was a common motto i heard among the chun community, irregardless of lineage.


you suggested TMA is only good for cultural value and should just admit as much
Some, but not all, especially if that is how the school/instructor plans on teaching that particular system. I'm excluding martial arts that do not evolve and are stagnant in what ever time period they were used. As i understand it, push hands and shuai jiou in china (or used to be) is a very alive martial art as they compete. Not sure about anywhere else in the world. As such, i'm willing to concede that shuai jiou was a bad example.