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curenado
12/17/2010 11:28am,
Is traditional Shaolin real?

Maybe.
It is harder to tell because you do not see traditional Shaolin devotees on here posting "You're stupid! Koochi Dum Ho is best!" and "UH-UH! You made up Dum Koochi Ho in your basement! Neener-neener!"
and other such mature statements of mastery and wisdom.
If a traditional Shaolin poster was here, don't you think they would immediately be trolled out anyway? Perhaps you don't see it because you do not want it or "mystically" speaking, it does not want you (at least in this condition)
I may have been out of touch but the maturity/security level in public MA these days reveals a lot of weakness and the effort to make ones art look better by claiming others do not exist or are "Stoopid dood."
Clearly, MA in and of itself can't make a man or give real power, so maybe you need some religion with your MA - or at least the return among some teachers and devotees of the practice of "Not looking like a stupid poo-fu"
Lol!
One can not even bring balance and perspective to such a table because the title of the thread shouild have more honestly been "Post how your art is better than Shaolin and Shaolin is stupid!"
(Sorry. I teach and have been head hunting, so you can see how dismal the scene is for worthwhile instructor potential - sure you can understand.)

Rivington
12/17/2010 11:35am,
I find it always pretty amusing how the Real Shaolin, complete with mystical powers and such, always lands at a strip mall in Arkansas or some other dump like that.

curenado
12/17/2010 11:54am,
Actually, I heard they are falling out of airplanes in the cities right now. Aren't the fellas from China in AZ and other highly populated areas?
I know there is some mixed feelings about all that but just saying I don't think we have had one of the current fad guys - and I thought a lot of dojos were in strip malls wherever you go?
I am not sure the building makes the art anymore than the art makes the man.

I guess if we share perspectives from personal experiences and situations:
1) We aren't in a strip mall. We are on top of a mountain in the middle of an oak forest 15 miles from the nearest town. That does not mean that our system of approach and execition is superior to a group in a strip mall - it just means that maybe we should invite them out for a pic-nic so they can get some fresh air and run in trees. If we do that, maybe they will invite us indoors sometime for tea during a ice storm...
The art is there for a man to make himself.

2) The New Forest Temple was a very old thing that developed over centuries. If any of us were with the first shaolin I doubt very much if a lot of us would like it. Also considering that a monks day is at least as much work and service as it is training....

3) Our "lineage" goes back two generations in the US and then to Taiwan - that in and of itself does not gaurantee anything but that we can show some birth certificates. It shows merely that we "came from somewhere" and whether or not our kung fu or wu shu has power or valuie is going to have to stand on it's own merit.
Again - the kung fu is in you. Not in a inherited jar on the chinese carved wooden shelf with master's ashes (which would make it a lot easier huh?)

4) We see kung fu in other styles and traditions - not Hung Gar, but none the less kung fu...and I do not mean that to be vague in any way. We were taught never to underestimate any practitioner. Judging by style and perceptions of validity can be risky.

...and I don't know a lot about other styles but I did think that Kenpo was a Karate form incorporating more movements and a slightly different philosophy which distinguished it, whether or not those things were inspired by or drawn from shaolin ? It is often hard to say when the forms themselves can cross schools so easily and any devotee is likely to adopt that which is helpful.

Ming Loyalist
12/17/2010 12:25pm,
Actually, I heard they are falling out of airplanes in the cities right now. Aren't the fellas from China in AZ and other highly populated areas?
I know there is some mixed feelings about all that but just saying I don't think we have had one of the current fad guys - and I thought a lot of dojos were in strip malls wherever you go?
I am not sure the building makes the art anymore than the art makes the man.

did you read the thread? shaolin as depicted in the movies never existed, and people who try to chase that fantasy are suckers.

traditional kung fu does exist, but is it "shaolin"? no.

W. Rabbit
12/17/2010 12:27pm,
If a traditional Shaolin poster was here, don't you think they would immediately be trolled out anyway?


I believe that all the traditional Shaolin all died off well before the invention of the Internet, but if there was a 500+ year old traditionalist who survived by doing centuries of qigong, he'd probably fit in on BS.net just fine. He and Der would engage in dharma combat daily for our amusement and learning. I would love to see the ancient traditionalist in Trollshido posting jokes about the Manchu Ching.

That said, there are plenty of arts that claim Shaolin roots/origins, some are able to document that lineage better than others (in my opinion), but in every case the "documentation" falls down to oral history and tradition and there is nothing wrong than that.

IF you study a Shaolin-rooted art (I study "traditional" Hung Gar which has a pretty well established lineage), I think you know what to expect: lots of grueling conditioning exercises, comprehensive technique dissection, strength building, breathing techniques, and ways to improve your overall pain tolerance, and of course most important, the brotherly love of one on one combat.

If your "traditional" Shaolin school is missing any of these items or all of them, you're at a McTemple.

curenado
12/17/2010 12:33pm,
But that is just your opinion without any real basis to back it up. Parts of Shaoling in fact do exist and no one has factored in all the things of time and politics etc. to throw the baby out with the bath water.
But you can SAY it doesn't all day. Either way, it affects the practitioners or the arts little. They go on and all develop over longer periods of time.
By your standard Kenpo does not exist because it is not the same as it was on the "first day". That is not true.

It is Fake
12/17/2010 12:34pm,
So, after to long diatribes, you agree with what we stated?


Our "lineage" goes back two generations in the US and then to Taiwan - that in and of itself does not gaurantee anything but that we can show some birth certificates. It shows merely that we "came from somewhere" and whether or not our kung fu or wu shu has power or valuie is going to have to stand on it's own merit.
Again - the kung fu is in you. Not in a inherited jar on the chinese carved wooden shelf with master's ashes (which would make it a lot easier huh?)

Yes, that's you rewording pretty much the entire thread.

People do kung fu original Shaolin is dead.

curenado
12/17/2010 12:38pm,
No, I said the opposite. It is alive and growing/evolving based on it's original elements and in fact has been incorporated in elements by many systems.

As for "diatribes" they are at least better than two-word dismissals from people trying to make it easy...

and
<<I think you know what to expect: lots of grueling conditioning exercises, comprehensive technique dissection, strength building, breathing techniques, and ways to improve your overall pain tolerance, >>

That is not even all of it....

W. Rabbit
12/17/2010 12:48pm,
No, I said the opposite. It is alive and growing/evolving based on it's original elements and in fact has been incorporated in elements by many systems.

<<I think you know what to expect: lots of grueling conditioning exercises, comprehensive technique dissection, strength building, breathing techniques, and ways to improve your overall pain tolerance, >>


I don't think anything counts as "traditional Shaolin" unless it involves living in a temple, eating congee, spending most of the day in meditation except for cleaning the temple and occasional meets of Buddhist Fight Club.

"Traditional Shaolin" is about being a Buddhist, not about martial arts, if you want to get technical. I don't think I am wrong about that...if I am someone will come and correct me.

Also, there is a quote feature you can use with tags, please use that instead of angle brackets....you're giving me USENET flashbacks.

curenado
12/17/2010 1:13pm,
I don't think anything counts as "traditional Shaolin" unless it involves living in a temple, eating congee, spending most of the day in meditation except for cleaning the temple and occasional meets of Buddhist Fight Club.

"Traditional Shaolin" is about being a Buddhist, not about martial arts, if you want to get technical. I don't think I am wrong about that...if I am someone will come and correct me.

Also, there is a quote feature you can use with tags, please use that instead of angle brackets....you're giving me USENET flashbacks.

I agree about it being more internal than external. I also suggest that there is even more to daily activity in the temple.
I did not know there were "meetings of buddhist fight club" as from other monasteries - sparring and practice at the monastery yes, but I did not know there was a "team vs team" visting team type situation.
We did not have anything like that or go to competitions but at least 30% of our floor time was spent in sparring with each other at various levels of contact.

Rivington
12/17/2010 1:16pm,
and I thought a lot of dojos were in strip malls wherever you go?

Beats me, I train in a muddy park like a normal person.

Permalost
12/17/2010 1:21pm,
No, I said the opposite. It is alive and growing/evolving based on it's original elements and in fact has been incorporated in elements by many systems.
This sounds like muddying the waters considering the thread is about "traditional" shaolin, whatever that means.

W. Rabbit
12/17/2010 1:27pm,
Beats me, I train in a muddy park like a normal person.

I train in a beat up old VFW hall (and sometimes a muddy park). I feel you.

Sometimes the hall is muddier than the park.

But there is are definitely no monks in robes anywhere, so I don't know if I can call it "traditional" Shaolin training. Oh bother...

curenado
12/17/2010 1:31pm,
This sounds like muddying the waters considering the thread is about "traditional" shaolin, whatever that means.

I think the waters are very muddied as it stands and a lot of this infighting comes from that, and people's desire to find validity in who and where they are as well as their system.
Just like this person who attests that practicing in a muddy park is the standard for normal - it just means that is his preferred or best available place to practice. It does not make that any more "real" and if it does then those of us who have muddy parks of our own should be inviting those who do not out for a day - not claiming we are better because we are in possession of mud.

Permalost
12/17/2010 1:37pm,
I'm not getting into the "real" part, just the "traditional" part. The notion that something is traditional but also "It is alive and growing/evolving based on it's original elements and in fact has been incorporated in elements by many systems." doesn't sound right to me. Granted, I think those are good things, but not what I'd call traditional.

curenado
12/17/2010 1:38pm,
I train in a beat up old VFW hall (and sometimes a muddy park). I feel you.

Sometimes the hall is muddier than the park.

But there is are definitely no monks in robes anywhere, so I don't know if I can call it "traditional" Shaolin training. Oh bother...

There are monks in robes. We have robes and I have seen some monks in orange robes on the internet - but many people think that they are being gymnastics teachers in orange robes and so I am not sure if the robe can be relied on as the standard for judgement.
In that I would ask a buddhist "Does the robe make you a buddhist or do you have a robe because you are a buddhist or are we being a little silly about all that?"
Then the orange robe could give his answer - and we would all have to take a break and contemplate it for awhile! Lol!

and "The hall is sometimes muddier than the park" - THAT was funny!