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DKJr
9/29/2010 10:23am,
On another forum this thread was started. I wanted to get bullshido's thoughts on the subject. Here is the forum where it was started, I'd ask you not to troll their forum.

http://www.draculinobjjtraining.com/forum/topic1212-where-do-you-stand-on-leg-locks.html

So leglocks when should they start to be learned and applied?

Which leglocks can we train?

How should they be integrated?

Discuss.

Permalost
9/29/2010 10:34am,
I'd really like to get better at them. At one of the SoCal throwdowns, Omega did a little leglock clinic that kinda went over my head but I got to see what a difference it makes when you align everything properly. I think that most people who talk about how leglocks suck are people that have a lot of little technical errors in applying them. When I used to spar with Chickenbeakfist on the weekends, I used to use straight ankle locks, twisting ankle locks and an occasional stepping over one, but never really got into kneebars or heel hooks (and that was probably best)

Vince Tortelli
9/29/2010 10:46am,
The leglock is to the armbar and choke as the kick and knee strike are to the jab/cross/hook.

Solely focusing on one to the exclusion of the other leaves you with gaping holes in your skillset, but when their powers combine...

I can see not teaching heel hooks to beginners, it's easy to badly mess someone up before they even have time to tap, but toe holds, knee bars, and ankle locks have no such limitation, true, they can be slammed on so forcefully that they cause injury, but so can the kimura and the venerable juji gatame.

Iainkelt
9/29/2010 11:04am,
For me it depends greatly on the person I'm training with. If I trust their skill level, and character, I'm totally fine with them going after leg locks with the caveat that I still will tap early if any kind of heel hook or similar hold is applied. But for other people? I immediately try to stuff any movement towards, or grabbing of, my legs that could lead to a leg lock. Maybe that is based on my limited knowledge of the subject (they weren't traditionally taught much at my gym, but that is changing a bit) and overinflated fears of the danger. But I feel more comfortable with people I don't trust trying armbars or chokes than I do leg locks.

So I would be all in favor of teaching leg locks pretty early on in order to familiarize people with them and the defenses, but with VERY clear instructions about possible dangers and the need for control.

Ryno
9/29/2010 11:04am,
What Vince said. In general straight leg and ankle locks can be taught pretty early, assuming the instructor knows the nuances. Bad leg locking position just ends up giving up position and losing control, it encourages sloppy scrambling. But I guess you could say the same thing about bad arm bars.

jnp
9/29/2010 11:19am,
The primary reason to delay teaching leglocks is that leg injuries reduce one's mobility. Most people can work with a damaged elbow or shoulder joint. However, many people can't work with a significantly damaged leg joint. Additionally, because of the loss of some degree of mobility, things like getting to the grocery store or going out to dinner become much more difficult. Some leg injuries prevent the injured from driving, and self driven automobiles are key to our modern mobile lifestyle.

This is why teaching leglocks is different from teaching arm and shoulder locks.

Siniq
9/29/2010 11:28am,
Makes no sense to limit your leg lock train... You know what? Stay that way BJJ guys, just keep training the old "wrap your legs conveniently around my body" routine. After all I'd like to keep my slight advantage, I mean who am I to tell you what to do, ya know?;)

DKJr
9/29/2010 12:37pm,
The primary reason to delay teaching leglocks is that leg injuries reduce one's mobility. Most people can work with a damaged elbow or shoulder joint. However, many people can't work with a significantly damaged leg joint. Additionally, because of the loss of some degree of mobility, things like getting to the grocery store or going out to dinner become much more difficult. Some leg injuries prevent the injured from driving, and self driven automobiles are key to our modern mobile lifestyle.

This is why teaching leglocks is different from teaching arm and shoulder locks.

What about blue belt level. I'm a blue belt, can I start training and applying all the leglocks I want with people who are experienced if I'm a reliable training partner? Also what about going for them, can I go for leglocks 30% 50% 10% of the time? Just trying to get a leg up on the competition.

DKJr
9/29/2010 1:07pm,
Makes no sense to limit your leg lock train... You know what? Stay that way BJJ guys, just keep training the old "wrap your legs conveniently around my body" routine. After all I'd like to keep my slight advantage, I mean who am I to tell you what to do, ya know?;)

As a Buttscooter, I defend BJJers everywhere in saying I train leglocks and use them so don't lump us all together. So remove your foot from your mouth sir.....(leg joke)

Siniq
9/29/2010 1:38pm,
As a Buttscooter, I defend BJJers everywhere in saying I train leglocks and use them so don't lump us all together. So remove your foot from your mouth sir.....(leg joke)

Sorry, but it's just that it's been my experience that BJJ and Judo guys regard leg locks as either too d33dleh to teach to anyone below some arbitrary rank or useless move that puts you in a vulnerable position(*COUGHJUMPGUARDCOUGH*).

Didn't mean to generalize too much.

jnp
9/29/2010 2:31pm,
Makes no sense to limit your leg lock train... You know what? Stay that way BJJ guys, just keep training the old "wrap your legs conveniently around my body" routine. After all I'd like to keep my slight advantage, I mean who am I to tell you what to do, ya know?;)
I never mentioned a time frame. Did you assume I was advocating not training them at all?

My opinion is that anyone with more than a year of grappling training should have already been exposed to all varieties of leg locks.


What about blue belt level. I'm a blue belt, can I start training and applying all the leglocks I want with people who are experienced if I'm a reliable training partner? Also what about going for them, can I go for leglocks 30% 50% 10% of the time? Just trying to get a leg up on the competition.
Straight ankle locks should be taught right away, non twisting leg locks taught to responsible students after six months of training and twisting locks such as toe holds and heel hooks after one year of training.

WhiteShark
9/29/2010 2:42pm,
The only thing we do and I believe pretty strongly is no heel hooks for super newbs. I'm talking 6mo-1yr range those dudes typically have no idea how to apply a heel hook other than to twist the crap out of your leg or don't know when to tap to it. Besides they have plenty of other things to worry about.

DKJr
9/29/2010 2:56pm,
I never mentioned a time frame. Did you assume I was advocating not training them at all?

My opinion is that anyone with more than a year of grappling training should have already been exposed to all varieties of leg locks.


Straight ankle locks should be taught right away, non twisting leg locks taught to responsible students after six months of training and twisting locks such as toe holds and heel hooks after one year of training.

So there for when you're rolling how often is appropriate to apply them? Or is it at individual discretion like all other submissions or passing guard? I'm interested in seeing how to teach them and apply them in training effectively to people just looking to get their feet wet. We wouldn't want them jumping in feet first....but I want them to be a step ahead...

Tenebrous
9/29/2010 3:24pm,
So there for when you're rolling how often is appropriate to apply them? Or is it at individual discretion like all other submissions or passing guard? I'm interested in seeing how to teach them and apply them in training effectively to people just looking to get their feet wet. We wouldn't want them jumping in feet first....but I want them to be a step ahead...

It's appropriate to apply them when they'll work. Fishing for them as a hail mary and then losing your position is counter productive and is obviously worse than not attempting the leglocks.

The best time for most leglocks is when you were pretty much already in the position you were going to end up in if you failed.

Sometimes, you're going to do it anyway.

Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs
9/29/2010 4:11pm,
This is going against the mainstream view but with us it starts at the moment you get your purple belt in BJJ.

Leglocks get trained in our Sport Submission Wrestling classes, starting from 6 months experience with the straight anckle lock and working gradually through the curriculum.

The reason that we start so 'late' in BJJ with leglocks is to give people the time to really learn a good guard game (holding and passing). But once you get purple it's leglock heaven playtime for the next 4 years until your BB.

If it was up to our teacher (and I support his view) we also would start no-gi grappling at the moment we got purple in BJJ. This is because you really have to master the techniques in gi while you can force sloppy techniques to work in no-gi.
Also a wet gi becomes a disvantage in escapes while a sweaty arm an avantage.

But the popularity of grappling combined with the eager of the beginners and combined with the fact that my teacher is only one of the two certified CSW instructors in Belgium makes it impossible to make the grappling classes only accessible for higher belts.

CrackFox
9/29/2010 5:25pm,
Have you just taken my back and are fishing for a choke? Did you just cross your ankles? If so I'm locking your ankle. Possibly even if it's a judo class and it's illegal. I once broke my toe crossing my ankles on a rugby player who decided to try to escape by trashing and rolling and slamming and rolling some more. A quick tweak on the ankle is a good way of reminding people not to cross their ankles. Just be prepared to let go of it quickly if they freak out.