UK Senshido Seminar Review

[Ryu]

Hi Matt,

Well the best way I can explain it would be that with repetitive strikes (like JKD's blast for instance) the fist must shoot out, land, retract, while the other shoots out, lands, and retracts, etc. This can be done extremely quickly, and with much vigor (it's not a bad tactic). However the retraction of the fist from the face in order to set up the next shot (i.e. to get torque and power) gives a window of opportunity for the opponent to counter and go from defensive to offensive. Usually the best counteroffensive tactic that seems to work well against a barrage of repetitive shots is a forceful duck under and clinch or double leg. With the shred's gouging, ear pulling, neck cranking, palming, etc. never "retracting" from the face, and therefore continually making that window of opportunity for counteroffense smaller, I feel it has an edge over "rapid fire" tactics that need to be pulled back and fired again, etc.

I hope that clears it up. :) Please feel free to ask any questions, I'll try to answer to the best of my ability. But keep in mind that I use headbutts, knee on stomach, and rear nakeds just as much as I do the shred. :) So it's not something I feel makes my training obsolete.
I'm sure Rich himself would be happy to answer any and all questions you have too.

Take care,
Ryu

[Bri Thai]

Heres the explanation of the quarter beat form another angle.

Imagine you are constantly hitting with a right hand. Bang bang bang. That is on the full beat.

Now alternate with both hands. You're right hand still connects just as often in any given time, but the left does too. So, you are throwing twice as many techniques. That is the half beat.

The Shredder doubles the speed again. For example, a palm strike instantly becomes a rake across the eyes, whilst the knee is going in his thigh, and then you are twisting his neck as you are simultaneously head butting his face........

Not many people are too afraid of being stung by a bee (unless they ahve a phobia). But a whole swarm of them? Thats a different matter. The Shredder hits you like a swarm of bees.

Thats the best way I can explain it.

Like you said, you need to see it now to understand it further. I don't have any clips etc. to post, though I do own the Shredder package. Its a shame we didn't have this conversation a few weeks ago. I was in Orlando and could have let you borrow it for the day. I think they are talking about posting the clip from Sunday where the grappler followed orders and took Rich to the floor. I hope they do. It was cool to watch how he used his Shredder concept to handle the situation.

Thanks for your open mind.

[Ronin]

Guys, STOP trying to explaine a technique in words, its almost impossible.
Without a point of reference, its s mess at best.
Its like trying to describe the colour red to a blind man.

[Bri Thai]

You have a point. But would the blind man be dumb enough to say that red is a load of shite when he had never seen it?

[WingChun Lawyer]

Ryu, thanks for your time. As a wing chun student, I am actually taught to NOT retract my hand when punching, quite the opposite, so I can´t see the benefit in your shredding - but still, your explanation helped somewhat.

You said yourself somewhere that that technique is hard to understand without a demonstration, so I will insist once more - couldn´t the shredding be successfully substituted by a series of short, non-retracting punches?

Originally posted by Bri Thai

The Shredder doubles the speed again. For example, a palm strike instantly becomes a rake across the eyes, whilst the knee is going in his thigh, and then you are twisting his neck as you are simultaneously head butting his face........


Well, this description of the shredder seemed to me more like a mindset (or fighting strategy) of never letting go once you connect than a specific set of hand techniques. Please explain.

[Bri Thai]

It is partly a mindset. Partly physical. There is no set order for the techniques to be thrown, no favoured combinations. You start to Shred and keep it up spontaneously, attacking whatever becomes available. If he lifts his hand, bend one of his fingers back. If he turns his face away, bite into his exposed trap. Ec. etc.

Again, I'm not sure the distance is right for the WC type of strikes that I have seen. It is as close as you can get.

[SamHarber]

Originally posted by Edd
Im 17 and have no martial arts training at all, it was my first time even simulating a fight and i picked it up, in order to be able to use it better i think i will need to practice with some friends first though but it doesnt take an expert to pick it up.

Congratulations on your first exposure.
I seriously advise you guys to have a look at some of his stuff hes a great guy and a great teacher.
Here in lies the rub. Inexperienced as you are, how would you differentiate a good martial artist and instructor from a talented fraudster?
Bullshido has dozens of examples of people who have only been exposed after sucking hundreds of people into believing their scam.
In this particular occasion, I don't doubt his abilities, but its always worthwhile being wary/cynical of anything.

[Bri Thai]

True.

I'm 40 years old and have 25 years of experience, in many different arts. I'm also a police officer and have had many a real go in the street, including your very own streets of Bolton. I reckon that there won't be many people here with more experience than I.

Wathcing the Gracies in early UFCs knocked me, and the rest of the MA community, for 6.

Watching Dimitri Shredd over 10 years later did exactly the same to me. The rest of the community just havent seen it yet.

But look at both of these threads. None of the critics have trained the Shredder. But everyone who has trained it has endorsed it.

That means somehting, doesn't it?

[Edd]

I dont have any experience so i have no real comparisons to use but 25 odd people with hundreds of years experience between them including Kevin O Hagan clapping and encoring and praising Rich at the end made my mind up. Im definetly going too look more into it and get a video maybe the shredder to get more used to it and practice it. From the full contact drills i saw and when i was shredded it looked effective. But I see why your skeptical but if you ever have a chance to see any of the info id recommend trying it. Are you interested in RBSD Sam, do you have any you recommend?
Edd

[Chad Power]

Well, this description of the shredder seemed to me more like a mindset (or fighting strategy) of never letting go once you connect than a specific set of hand techniques. Please explain.

One of the most important aspects of the Shredder is that it is behaviorally rooted; targets appear via your opponents panicked attempt to disengage from you while you Shred them. Plainly put, their flinch mechanism kicks in without their conscious participation. This is why the quarter beat is so crucial to the concept. Once you begin the Shred, your opponent will be reacting/defending against the 'last' strike, while you are already launching the next, and on and on...

This key element, the behavioral aspect, is WHY the Shredder is so innovative. Many look at the Shredder and say "So you eye gouge, or bite, or rake...so what? That's nothing new." It's the fact that you create a Predator vs Prey role reversal.

And I personally would rather use those strikes against an experienced adversary, as they would carry much more force - and I don´t believe in relying on other people´s psychological weaknesses in a fight, which does seem to be what the shredder is actually about!

True enough that the Shredder is a close quarter conceptual tool, and NOT meant to be applied outside of that range. However, you are not relying on an individuals psychological weaknesses in the context that you are using Wing Chun Lawyer. The fact that an individual will instinctively push you away while being Shredded is not a weakness per say, it's a reaction. It's easy to prove this by placing your hand on someone's face and rubbing it across repeatedly with just slight pressure...their first instinct will be to disengage (push you away, turn their head, bring their arms up etc) via a flinch.

[SamHarber]

Edd - sadly I don't know much about the Southwest scene, so I can't reccomend anyone to you from down there. Personally, I would try and avoid recomending a style as I prefer to place my trust in individual teachers instead.
The best thing to do is keep an eye open for anything going on near you and then asking questions on here about that specific person/school.

Good luck.

[WingChun Lawyer]

Originally posted by Chad Power

True enough that the Shredder is a close quarter conceptual tool, and NOT meant to be applied outside of that range. However, you are not relying on an individuals psychological weaknesses in the context that you are using Wing Chun Lawyer. The fact that an individual will instinctively push you away while being Shredded is not a weakness per say, it's a reaction. It's easy to prove this by placing your hand on someone's face and rubbing it across repeatedly with just slight pressure...their first instinct will be to disengage (push you away, turn their head, bring their arms up etc) via a flinch.

That makes sense, but a trained fighter, or anyone with some fighting experience, will have built in reflexes that will allow him other actions instead of just flinching, and which could be used to neutralize the shredder without much difficulty. A simple one step retreat would do the trick, for instance, or maybe a clinch, or a head butt...

I am not a fighter of much skill myself, but my judo background would probably allow me to put pressure against the hand in an attempt to obtain a clinch, and thereafter try a takedown (or just push the adversary away).

This is why I think the shredder is not such a good idea against fighters with much experience.

[Edd]

Just stepping back sounds good but the idea is to prevent that, Rich went through how your opponent can be stopped from escaping. There were a few trained fighters that took Rich on full contact to show how it works one was a real strong grappler with alot of experience.

[Ka-Bar]

Originally posted by ronin69
Guys, STOP trying to explaine a technique in words, its almost impossible.
Without a point of reference, its s mess at best.
Its like trying to describe the colour red to a blind man.

Didn't you ever see "Mask" with Cher and Eric Stoltz? Red is hot, and blue is cold. Jeez.

[Chad Power]

a trained fighter, or anyone with some fighting experience, will have built in reflexes that will allow him other actions instead of just flinching, and which could be used to neutralize the shredder without much difficulty. A simple one step retreat would do the trick, for instance, or maybe a clinch, or a head butt...

WCL,

If you note one of my earlier responses, I did have the opportunity to apply the Shredder to an un-cooperative, yet trained fighter. He did attempt to retreat, but I was anchored on him so he could not create distance; I think he tried a single, but we ended up falling, where he pulled a closed guard. As he did so, he also grabbed both of my hands to stop me from continuing to rip at his face...I used a tool I still had available: I bit him (through his sweatshirt). He immediately let go of my arms and I also started shredding again right away...finally he just threw up his arms over his head and I stopped.

With regards to someone with fighting experience having built in reflexes that will allow them to do other things other than flinch...I have to disagree. I have 13 years of experience from boxing, wrestling, grappling etc, yet when one of my kids jumps out from behind a door and scares the beejeezus out of me, I don't jump into a fighting stance...I simply flinch and usually scream bloody murder. :D The flinch mechanism is inborn, natural, and part of an individual's behavioral makeup. A prime example of an extremely well trained fighters response to an unexpected attack, think about when Mike Tyson bit Evander Holyfields ear. Holyfield didn't 'drop' Tyson for it...in fact he IMMEDIATELY grabbed his ear and literally started jumping up and down.

And that was only ONE bite. ;) :D

[Bri Thai]

I also cannot see how a trained fighter will have a conditioned reflex against an attack that he has never experienced before.

Maybe one day people will develop "Anti Shredder" methodologies. These may, or may not, be credible. Who knows? But we're a long way form that at this point, as hardly anyone knows about the Shredder, and even less have been attacked by it.

Yet everyone on this forum who has is supporting it. No one has yet even claimed that they defeated it - not even an internet liar (and we all know how many of them there are).

The arguments are mostly done now. People need to either see it or ignore it. Or, if they are daft enough, condemn it before really knowing anything about it.