UK Senshido Seminar Review

[WhiteShark]

Originally posted by The Wastrel
See, this is how you defend your system. Good work guys. This is so much better than attackproof did.

Hell yeah! You see people when you come on here and talk SENSE instead of ranting with no logical argument you get respect and understanding. It's that simple.

That being said I still have a few questions. What is different about the set-up for the Shredder that let's you apply it in the the way you described. It seems to me some of the control required to be in a "safe" position to shred would make shredding very difficult for smaller defenders and anyone without a strong clinch background.

Also I appreciate your arguments but I still think "I need to see for myself." :)

[Kempocos]

RYU - nice job on the info , However to take basic concepts and package them does not warrant a nifty name and seminar circuit. The concepts should be part of any advnaced training. Things that you describe can be found in the studiesn of BODY ALARM REACTION there has been alot of research done the oldest I know oif is 1928. That is why my earleir comment was.

" I just do not think that he is doing anything that is a breakthrough concept. I would look twice at the other schools I have trained in if these came across as new ways of thinking. It is just the result of realistic training."

[Matt W.]

He is not claiming to have invented any of the particular tools used during the Shredder.

From his website, "Unique to Senshido, the Shredder has been referred to by most as a revolutionary and innovative offensive tactic and concept as well as "The Missing Link in Martial Arts and Self Defense"." (Emphasis added)

Dimitri is NOT claiming that the Shredder replaces grappling

From the testimonials listed on the website, "I think the whole package puts an end to the debate about grappling and RBSD..." And, "They [BJJers] couldn't believe the simplicity of it and how much it screwed their offensive positions! ...No matter what submission my buddy tried it failed over and over again as I Shredded him." And, "Everytime I shot in for the single/double leg I got a facefull of hand in my face. ...The Shredder owns everything on the street."

Dimitri also has a good background in grappling.

Yes, and I also noticed that he admits on his website that what they do is similar MMA. But it appears there's quite a disconnect between what he admits about fighting (that you must be a competent stand up and ground fighter) and what his marketing hype declares (that a dirty trick type contept like bting and eye gouging can enable anyone to beat any attacker). Which is a problem with the whole RBSD scene, if you ask me.

Regards,
Matt

[Bri Thai]

Matt - you are quoting what other people have said about it. They are the ones proclaiming these great things about the Shredder. Richard goes out of his way not to bad mouth other systems, and he has always stressed the importance of kickboxing/grappling etc.

As for your point "why haven't I seen it then". The Gracies devised the UFC to promote their system, and they did a wonderful job with it. I have every reaspect for them - watching the UFCs educated me massively, and I went straight out and found a good grappling instructor ( www.maxt.co.uk )

The Submission wrestling moves can defeat people without hurting them, and it is also a sport. They can compete well with or without rules and still win.

Senshido cannot do that. It is not, and has never pretended to be, a sport. I have seen Dimitri defeat an excellent grappler using the Shredder principles (along with grappling principles of course, which he fully acknowledges). And he did it with the partial shred. The guy "Tony" himself has just registered on the Senshido forum and posted about the experience, see the threead there with the same titel as this one. He has an impressive background. Now I know you could suspect that someone has posted this dishonestly, that it is not the guy. But I doubt it.

Senshido is about personal protection. It is not about ripping peoples eyes out to promote a system, and it is not about sport. There hae been people who have marched into Senshido and challenged Richard directly. None of them have then publicly claimed to the internet world that they beat him.

But I don't like all this talk of challenges. Take a look at it and come to an opinion. If you don't like it, thats fine. But if you dismiss it without giving it a fair crack of the whip you are being unfair to Senshido and, more importantly, unfair to yourself.

People - you have jumped to conclusons, and it must be partly my fault, as the pitch of this seminar review is more for people who already know Richard and things about this system. It is now apparent that many of you do not, and therefore classify this as yet another bunch of martial arts bull shit. And it is fair to say that I have seen some so called "reality based" arts that pretend that grappling isn't necessary and easy to beat. he are arse-holes of the first order.

Senshido is not like these systems. Don't take my word for it. Find out for yourself.

[Bri Thai]

Kempocos - I hear what you are saying. But you have to see it. The makers of the Porsche did not invent cars either. Does that make sense?

Take a proper look at it, THEN tell us whether or not you think it is shite. Is that fair?

[RobP]

"Take a look at it and come to an opinion. If you don't like it, thats fine. But if you dismiss it without giving it a fair crack of the whip you are being unfair t Senshido and, more importantly, unfair to yourself. ....Don't take my word for it. Find out for yourself.."

All things I have said about the style I practice, yet I notice that comes in for a regular knocking on the Senshido forum.

I couldn't make the seminar on Sunday but would have been interested to see. Of course I have my own views based on what is presented on the website and I do think there is an amout of hype, but isn't that the market these days? Will the average "punter" go for a style that is "effective" or for one that will make him an invincible street soldier?

[Matt W.]

Bri,

The fault is not yours. You have done a fine job trying to reasonably defend the system. The fault, if anything, is in the marketing approach being used. But, I think you're right, at this point it simply needs to be experienced or at least seen to evaluate it any further.

The only thing I'll add is this... You said, "I have seen Dimitri defeat an excellent grappler using the Shredder principles (along with grappling principles of course, which he fully acknowledges). And he did it with the partial shred." So all I was saying about seeing it was, post some vids of this kind of stuff. I understand the street versus ring stuff, but on the website he makes claims to be able to safely use it in sparring too. Without any kind of video evidence all we are left with is the marketing hype, which I'm sure even you must admit, sounds like typical bullshido claims.

Anyway, I do appreciate you taking the time to answer questions. Welcome to the forum and I hope you stick around.

Regards,
Matt

[Kempocos]

I have seen a video on " shredder " and I never called it shit , what I did is call into question the way it is presented comments such as

"Unique to Senshido, the Shredder has been referred to by most as a revolutionary and innovative offensive tactic and concept as well as "The Missing Link in Martial Arts and Self Defense"." (Emphasis added)

This is a marketing technique used to sell it as information not found anywhere else. I stated that the techniques should be part of any realistic training regiment. The act of making false claims calls in question everything else about the man who makes the claims.

[Ryu]

It's my understanding that this particular incident was indeed video taped. I'm hoping that some of the seminar goers can post the vid on here, as I have seen video footage of Rich doing the same thing against a decent double leg attempt at a seminar as well.

Ryu

[Bri Thai]

Matt - thansk. Ive answered your concerns re the marketin on the other thread. I share some of them.

Kempoco - what is the video you ahve seen? I am interested to know. "I stated that the techniques should be part of any realistic training regiment." We are at cross purposes. If you have seen the real Shredder you will know two things.
1. It SHOULD be part of any realistic training regimen
2. At the moment, it is not.

I think you are looking at some of the individual tools being described, which is fair enough. But, at this point, have yet to appreciate how the Shredder concept puts them all together. Sorry to e boring, but you have to see it to appreciate it. In 25 years of a vast range of study I had also seen bites, eye gouges, head and neck manipulations etc. But I had NEVER seen anything like the Shredder.

RobP - Sometimes other styles do come in for a slating on the Senshido forum. There are one or two of the same personalities that are always involved. It is usually Rich that politely closes off the threads.

[WingChun Lawyer]

Originally posted by Ryu

The shred is a tool and concept used in extreme close quarters. The shred's effectivenss is due to the human body's natural flinch and defense response when it's eyes, nose, breathing ways, throat, etc. are being threatened.

(..._

The shred is a clinch weapon. It's an anchor weapon. You use it in grappling when you have full control of your opponent's head and neck, and have trapped it to your hands (this can be with your elbow, your hand, in between your chest and the ground, etc.)

In order to shred you have to trap/anchor/keep the opponent's head locked to you. Your arms are not extended at all, and position is a must in order to perform it correctly (and work it against a fully resistant opponent).

Ryu, that does sound reasonable. But do you think the shredder, as you described above, is actually superior to, say, a series of short punches or palm strikes to the face?

IMHO, it seems the main advantage would be psychological (shocking the adversary), as the shredder seems to be (according to the description above) applicable only when you are in a good position to apply the aforementioned palm strikes/short punches. And I personally would rather use those strikes against an experienced adversary, as they would carry much more force - and I don´t believe in relying on other people´s psychological weaknesses in a fight, which does seem to be what the shredder is actually about!

Thanks for your attention.

[Bri Thai]

Good questions. I hope you don't mind me putting my oar in to.

The Shredder works well when you are torso to torso with the guy. Either standing up or on the floor. At this range there is little distance or torque available, so strikes are adversely affected - they lack real power.

As an aside, Rich demonstrated this at the seminar. He hugged a guy close and then told him to hit him aas hard as he could. Te guy pumped hooks and uppercuts into his torso, but they had nothing more than an annoyance effect.

The strikes in the Shredder are more like the bullets of an Uzi. They are nothing when compared to a shot gun - but dozens of them sure add up. And they are supported by gougin, biting, neck wrenching, kneeing etc. etc.

And yes, the effect is also psychological. It makes you feel as if you are drowning if you are on the receiving end. But the physical punishment is brutal also.

Does that help?

[Chad Power]

The only thing I'll add is this... You said, "I have seen Dimitri defeat an excellent grappler using the Shredder principles (along with grappling principles of course, which he fully acknowledges). And he did it with the partial shred." So all I was saying about seeing it was, post some vids of this kind of stuff. I understand the street versus ring stuff, but on the website he makes claims to be able to safely use it in sparring too. Without any kind of video evidence all we are left with is the marketing hype, which I'm sure even you must admit, sounds like typical bullshido claims.


Matt is making a very valid point here, especially as an individual looking from the outside in at all this. I can't speak for Rich, nor do I make reference to how he markets... but videos on the site showing the Shred may well be a good direction.

I've been running my gym commercially for a few years now, and only began promoting the Shredder/Senshido part of our training for about a month or so. Last Tuesday was the very first time that a 'drop-in' has come in to (for lack of a better term) challenge me. I know the fellow to see him, but not on a personal level; he trains at another local gym, and primarily does Thai and Sambo. Long story short, he eventually asks if we grapple (we were working some knife drills at the time) and asked if we could roll. After we played a bit, I hit a snap down on him and went into a Shred. His reaction was to immediately push away, and we eventually ended up on the ground where he pulled guard; I continued the Shred until he put his arms across his face and then stopped. That's about it...he got up, bitched at bit then put is shoes on and left.

I suppose this'll come across with a tone of 'Bullshido' (lol) on it's own, kind of like a troll who comes out of nowhere and posts in defence of a 'style'.

All I know is that we work hard on stand-up, clinch and ground. I've had provincial (or State for the U.S. folk) level wrestlers and even one lady who was an Olympic team candidate, Golden Glover's and a host of other sorts that have come through and tuned up our game. But I stand by the notion that the Shredder has completely changed the way we deal with, and approach, violence.

I said it before, I am obviously biased as I am now an affiliate of Senshido; but there was a reason I added this to our game. Outside of forum, feel free to contact me any which way with any questions...

Take Care,

Chad Power
Timmins, ON
pmatimmins@yahoo.com
705-363-8306

[Ryu]

Originally posted by WingChun Lawyer
Ryu, that does sound reasonable. But do you think the shredder, as you described above, is actually superior to, say, a series of short punches or palm strikes to the face?

IMHO, it seems the main advantage would be psychological (shocking the adversary), as the shredder seems to be (according to the description above) applicable only when you are in a good position to apply the aforementioned palm strikes/short punches. And I personally would rather use those strikes against an experienced adversary, as they would carry much more force - and I don´t believe in relying on other people´s psychological weaknesses in a fight, which does seem to be what the shredder is actually about!

Thanks for your attention.


As a PFS JKD man, I grew quite decent with the straightblast, the neck clinch, and HKE combinations, plus adding it in with duck unders, suplexes, singles, etc.
In my personal opinion and experience with the shred, I'd say that I personally find it more effective than the blast or a series of short punches/strikes to the face.

The reason is not in the power of the tool, but in the quarter beat vs. half beat aspect. What this means is that while blasting an opponent I found out that a good fighter has much more opportunity and time to defend and go on the offensive while being blasted. Yes, he could be getting hit with repetitive short punches, but when he covers, he has a momentary second in time to psychologically and physically regroup and try for a counter-offensive tactic whether it be a clinch, a takedown, a duck under, a hook, whatever.
Because repetitive short punches to the face usually hit on a half beat (meaning hitting, returning, and hitting again while leaving the proximity of the face) there is ample time for a good opponent to regroup in the midst of the attack. (not always, but from hard sparring I've found out that it happens often.)

With the shred used in hard sparring I've found that a good opponent is constantly trying to "catch up" to defend the attack since it is delivered on the quarter beat and continually attacks vital targets one after the other without any "return."
This means that while there may not be as much power to the individual strikes being done, the constant bombardment of attacks forces the opponent to continually be on the defensive and leaves almost no room for counter-offensive tactics unless he is able to first get AWAY from the shred. Once its in, it's been my experience, that the person is forced naturally to continually go on the defensive, and cannot "catch up" with his defense.

This doesn't mean someone can't get away from the shred if there is missed timing, etc. But in order to make the shred effective against a resistant opponent.....gotta train it against them. :)

I hope that answers your question. If I can be of any more help, please let me know.

Take care,
Ryu

[Edd]

Hi, im from UK and went to the seminar last Sunday and was amazed:

"So do you see what I'm saying? In order to apply something like the shredder the guy will have to already know how to fight. And if he doesn't know how to fight then he won't be able to apply the Shredder. " - Matt . W

Im 17 and have no martial arts training at all, it was my first time even simulating a fight and i picked it up, in order to be able to use it better i think i will need to practice with some friends first though but it doesnt take an expert to pick it up.


"So, if senshido and The Shredder are supposed to be like that, why haven;t I seen it? I mean, I've seen the Gracies. There are dozens of videos of real fights in the ring, in challenge matches and even some on THE STREET (tm) where the Gracies demonstrate their style's effectiveness. Where are the similar videos of Dimitri and his students demonstrating the effectiveness of their style in real fights?" - Matt

Rich set up Senshido to help out people not to win medals. Senshido isnt just about fighting, its about surviving, he encorporates pre and post fight stuff including, avoidennes, awareness, de escalation, functional strength training, rape prevention and loads more.
I seriously advise you guys to have a look at some of his stuff hes a great guy and a great teacher.

Edd

[Matt W.]

Half beat and quarter beat are musical timing terms that even in that context are relative to the tempo. What do they mean here in this context?

Regards,
Matt