UK Senshido Seminar Review

[LLL]

Mr Bull, meet Mr Shit...

[Matt W.]

Bri,

You seem a bit reasonable, so let me try and explain my disdain at the Shredder. You said, Your head is being twisted and pulled, destroying your balance. Fingers are gouging at your eyes, pulling hard tearing your ears.... You cop for the odd knee strike in your groin or thigh, and your bitten, palm heeled, elbowed, etc. etc. All this occurs with a machine gun delivery, the techniques constantly flowing from one to the other. That is what the Shredder aims to do.

Okay, here's the problem I have. Since I'm currently training wrestling, let's use a takedown as an example. A double leg, set up off of a combo of a coupla punches. The claims of Senshido would seem to be claiming that someone could stop a double like that with the Shredder. And furthermore, that someone who would normally be taken down by that attack could now defend it with the Shredder. But that claim seems ridiculous to me. It is actually pretty difficult to even punch someone as they shoot in for a double leg, especially if they have a half-way decent set up for it. So unless the guy is also a grappler and can sprawl out of my double (in which case he would be defending with grappling and not the shredder), I don't see how he's going top be able to put his hands on my face, grab hard enough and keep them there long enough to do any damage. So he's going down.

Now, if he knows groundfighting, he can immediately start fighting for position, which, if he gets good position he'll be able to apply this Shredder, I suppose. But if that's the case then he could also apply any other number of attacks that would be just as effective (and in some cases more) as the Shredder. But if he doesn't groundfighting, then I am going to be controlling hi on the ground, and establishing a dominant position (probably mount) from which I can safely attack him just about any way I want. I fail to see how he could then apply the shredder.

So do you see what I'm saying? In order to apply something like the shredder the guy will have to already know how to fight. And if he doesn't know how to fight then he won't be able to apply the Shredder. So, at best, the Shredder is just another technique that is probably less effective than an armbar and is certainly less effective than a choke or at worse it's useless.

Regards,
Matt

[Ronin]

"the shredder"...
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH * takes out some cheese and shreddes it* HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

[shironinja]

Originally posted by Matt W.
So do you see what I'm saying? In order to apply something like the shredder the guy will have to already know how to fight. And if he doesn't know how to fight then he won't be able to apply the Shredder. So, at best, the Shredder is just another technique that is probably less effective than an armbar and is certainly less effective than a choke or at worse it's useless. I think he already addressed this. See:

Originally posted by Bri Thai
But here are a few caveats about the Shredder. He does NOT say that it is a complete system that will replace your kick boxing or your grappling. It is an EXTRA skill to add to your existing arsenal. Senshido people still train boxing/grappling.kick boxing etc. The are important attributes to develop. But they aim to be reality based, not enter the sporting arena.

[Kingston]

If you pre-register its only 75$ for a 4 hour seminar... Thats not bad.

Rich wants around 20 per seminar, this allows him to be able to have time to adress peoples questions or concerns on an individual basis....

I think it would be more then worth the 100$ for the seminar.

I went to the last one in Oshawa, Rich is the real deal. He aint in it for the money, and he has an honest, and straight forword way of explaining things, and testing things.

Some of the stuff on his site, and things that people say on his forums can easily be missunderstood.

He aint trying to sell his elite str33t warriorz unbeatable style.

The shredder is "unbeatable" in the same way a rear choke is... if you got it, you got it..... the guy will tap, or pass out. Same goes for the shredder, its not simply eye gauging... or raking, its the psychological aspect and most importantly THE SETUP to the shredder that allows it to be so effective.

NOTE: the shredder is only an aspect of Rich's stuff, it happens to be one of the more impressive, and talked about aspects.. but its only a small part of the picture... the same way a choke, or a punch would be just an aspect of another system. Its a concept, not a group of techniques in sequence.

Rich aint trying to rip people off, when you meet him, this is obvious... iv met him, he has no ego, if you prove him wrong, he will probably thank you. It just allows him to know he is teaching stuff that works.

He is an impressive guy. Just trying to 'keep it real'.

Fuck styles or systems, its about what works, and what doesn't. It's a constant process of critical analysis, as well as testing.... Rich has been able to constantly evolve, and give an honest look at what he does and say without any ego "does this work". Thats probably the thing i like most about him.

[LLL]

I can teach you Finnish streetfighting techniques.

& for only $10/person/hour... & Finns kicked the Russians' ass in WW2!! So Systema sucks BALLS! Here's the REAL stuff...

[flights, hotels & other shit ofcoursenotincludedinthesmallprintontheback].

[Kempocos]

excuse but THE SHREDDER IS NOTHING INNOVATIVE. just nameing it does not make it new. lets review.
twist the head ...... BRILLIANT, eye gouge.... ...... BRILLIANT, bite............. BRILLIANT, fish hook............ BRILLIANT, palm strikes...... BRILLIANT, machine gun delivery...... BRILLIANT.

In the USA we would call this a good ole redneck a$$ whooppin. Not pretty but damn effective.

[Bri Thai]

Kempocos - people said things like that about BJJ when it hit the scene. "Its only rolling around on the floor" they said. And it is..... but it is also so much more. Remember, I did say that a written description cannot do it justice. You have to see it in action. Imagine Mike Tyson is a shotgun? The shredder is like a Uzi pistol. None of the bullets are anything like as powerful, i.e. they don't have the same energy behind them. But this particular Uzi not only strikes dozens of times, it also keeps things right into the bits that hurt most.

He is not claiming to have invented any of the particular tools used during the Shredder. What he has done is refined their use into what he now calls the Shredder - into a spontaneous swarming attack. The Gracies didn't invent anything new when they developed GJJ. But they developed innovative ways off applying their range of fighting.

matt - I see your point. Wrestlers are to be feared, and were once vastly underated. But. like Shironinja pointed out, Dimitri is NOT claiming that the Shredder replaces grappling. It is an extra tool at your disposal. I've done lots of submission (purely groundwork though, thats the limit of my experience in grappling due to a knee injury). I can see how easy the Shredder is to apply from the ground. Much easier than gaining submission, and even easier than ground and pound. Again, you have to see it.

Dimitri also has a good background in grappling. In the Shredder package tape he outlines some defences against, for example, the mount and the takedown. But he stresses that you also need an understanding of grappling to apply it. The Shredder is there to add to your existing arsenal. It is not there to replace anything.

ronin69 - Canada is a big country. He is based in Montreaul and, as you have been told, has a seminar coming up in Toronto. It is easy to laugh and poke fun. Why not go along and see for yourself? Email the guy. See if he will offer you a moneyback guarantee if you still think it is shite. I don't know whether he will or not, but it is worth a try. But, of course, he can't do that for everyone. He is running a business after all. I sincerely believe that you will not be asking for your money back. He will tell you to come at him with anything that you want to. And you will either beat the Shredder or it will beat you. I don't know you. I don't know how good you are or even what arts you practice. But I would be amazed if you still had the same opinion at the end of the seminar.


This is a board I am not used to. I post alot on Defend.Net and treat what I see as bullshit the same way that some of you are treating this. But I speak from real experience when I do, not by jumping to conclusions. I have studied TMA's, and seen just how much shite is in there. And I call a spade a spade.

But I have also studied Senshido and can tell you that it is a genuine self protection art with innovative theories and a strong practical application. Just to convince you of my non bias position, any of you can email me at bujutsuboy@aol.com I have reviewed a few Senshido products (including the Shredder Video Tape as well). You will see criticisms amongst the words I used. And Dimitri willingly puts those reviews on his site, and he never, ever, asks me to change a word.

I can see why there is so much skepticism. There are so many arse-holes out there who claim to have these mystical abilities that can beat all comers. But you are making a mistake if you think that Dimitri is claiming anything like this. He (and many others) thinks that he has an excellent product in the Shredder. One that will increase your chances of survivng a real fight a great deal. But he says many many times that "it is not the end all and be all".

Thanks for the interest. Keep an open mind. But, of course, not so open that your brains drop out!

[Kempocos]

Bri Thai - I have been aware of him for a couple of years. I just do not think that he is doing anything that is a breakthrough concept. I would look twice at the other schools I have trained in if these came across as new ways of thinking. It is just the result of realistic training.

[tmanifold]

First this is a much better thread than the other. A little more mature.

Kempocos:
Good obsevervation. I am a firm believer that NOTHING is new. Rich is just a guy who has come up with a good way to put it together.

Matt W.
Like you I have a wrestling background, I have also been submission fighting for over 10 years so I understand the game a bit. Maybe I can help shed some light on the situation. I won't comment on the shedder specifically because I don't feel I am qualified to do that but I will comment on what you posted and the general concept.

Using the double leg as an example. If you can't defend a double leg you are going down. Pretty simple. However, if you are good enough to stop his momentum, and delay the take down say 3-5 seconds you have enough time to jam a finger in his eye socket. You have now defeated the double leg.

Lets say you are on the ground. If you are totally dominated and have now postional grappling skills you won't be in a position to successfull eye gouge or "Shred".

You are right in that you need to know some fighting skills and I am sure Rich teaches them. However, you are wrong in saying is is less effective than an arm bar. One, A thumb in the eye is always more effective than a Kimure (Ude Garami) and; two, it is quicker.

Tony

[Chad Power]

I've always admired this site for it's ability to sniff out B.S. and to post videos whenever they were available.

I suppose I can't be impartial like others as I am a Senshido affiliate.

To give background, at my gym we focus on West/Thai Boxing, Clinch (via Greco and Folk) and Ground (BJJ/Judo). Further to this I was also a member of Blauer's PDR Pro Team; and we are also an Affiliated Training Group of Straightblast Gym.

Actually, I have to agree with the fact the there really is nothing new under the sun, and that most of us would deal with a 'gouge' or a 'fishhook' with a severe beatdown, followed by a nasty mat-burn. As mentioned, the base of my program is still standup, clinch and ground...the methods that we work are the most reliable, and efficient delivery systems that I have seen yet.

I got involved with Senshido's principles long before I had any idea of what the Shredder entailed. I added those principles to what I was already using, and they fit very well into my program. The Shredder, however, made a big change to how we approached physical contact outside of the gym.

No we do not just 'magically' apply Shredding to the big bad attacker...nor do we now spend hours working the fishhook as opposed the the double, single or firemans. It's an addition to it.

Shit, there is no one answer, but there sure is hell some additions to anyone's game that can improve it.

I'll be there in March for the Toronto seminar, I hope some of the T.O. folks can attend to draw their own conclusions.

All the best.

Chad Power
Timmins, ON
705-363-8306
pmatimmins@yahoo.com

[Ryu]

Hey there guys, name's Ryu.
I'm posting on here because I have a background in MMA/BJJ and have been studying and field testing some of the Senshido stuff for the last year and a half or so. I've added the shredder to my arsenal, and I'll explain why.

Keep in mind it's late, so I may be a bit groggy here. :)

First a bit about my background.
Been involved with the martial arts for almost 20 years now.

When I was 14 I first started getting involved with JKD. When I was 16 I started taking lessons in JKD concepts from Paul Vunak and Thomas Cruz. Got involved with BJJ after the first UFC, and started attending seminars with Rickson Gracie, and Fabio Santos.
Continued with my JKD concepts training, and also enrolled in Carlos Machado's BJJ academy in Dallas. Spent time as well in a judo school run by Sensei Vince Tamura, and am now currently a full instructor in JKD concepts under sifu Paul Vunak.

Okay.
Well lots has been said about Rich's concepts (some intelligent, some not so intelligent) so I figured I'd come on to say my piece, and explain the shredder......from at least my experience with it and how I use it in conjunction with my JKD and MMA format.

First and foremost, the shred is not a magic pill. It's not a "secret move" to beat grapplers, it's not a killer technique or a move to learn that will let the 130 pound nerd beat up the big bad 200 pound wrestler.
Anyone who thinks or says that is a moron. Plain and simple.

That being said, because of what the shred is exactly, I think there's semantic misunderstandings that happen when people first hear about it. (It's an eye gouging system, it's about scratching people's faces, etc.)

The shred is a tool and concept used in extreme close quarters. The shred's effectivenss is due to the human body's natural flinch and defense response when it's eyes, nose, breathing ways, throat, etc. are being threatened.
(i.e. when something comes at our eyes we blink....whether we want to or not. We try to defend against a gouge by turning our head, grabbing the hand, tucking our chin down, etc.)
The shred follows these flinch responses on the quarter beat, and in so doing creates a repetitive attack that bypasses the flinch response of the human body.
What this means is that when the fighter is in good position, he may shred his opponent, and when doing so, the opponent is put (naturally) on the defensive without good leverage, balance, or motivation to go offensive.

When the defender ducks his head to escape the gouge, his ear is being pulled off, when he tries to defend his ear, fingers are rammed into his eyes, as he tries to duck under and clinch, his neck is cranked to one side, while his eye is gouged from the other hand, while his hair is pulled, while his chin is palmed, while his head is cranked to the other side, while his legs are being jammed, while he's being pulled down to the ground, etc.

The repetitiveness of the attack is in the clinch at all times. And because of the immediate threat, the body must immediately defend itself. The problem is that the attack becomes "too quick" for the defenses to catch up to in a sense. Trying to simply bypass the "defense" mechanism of the body and "force" a takedown, clinch, etc. usually results in a loss of balance, leverage, weak powered shoot, etc.

The hands travel across the face, and never lift off the face while they do so. The hands are so invasive that the body's natural response (even among fighters) is to immediately try and get those hands away.
(Test this out. Clinch with someone and instruct them to try their damndest to keep their hands in your face no matter what. The body's reaction to it is sometimes surprising. Do it full out and with full resistance with both sides.)

The shred also is, as I mentioned before, a close quarter tactic. This means that you DO NOT extend your arms for it....ever. To do so is not "shredding."
You don't extend your arms on the ground, and you don't extend your arms on your feet either....
it's easy to simply duck under an extended arm in the clinch, and go for a back suplex, ankle pick, or any other host of takedowns at your disposal.
If you're grappling and someone reaches up to grab your face while you're mounted.....well it's easy to simply spin around their outstretched arm and fall back into an armbar. Or slap it to the side and get a shoulder choke, or any other host of submissions from that position.

What then does the shred do if it doesn't involve extending arms in any way, shape, or form?
The shred is a clinch weapon. It's an anchor weapon. You use it in grappling when you have full control of your opponent's head and neck, and have trapped it to your hands (this can be with your elbow, your hand, in between your chest and the ground, etc.)

In order to shred you have to trap/anchor/keep the opponent's head locked to you. Your arms are not extended at all, and position is a must in order to perform it correctly (and work it against a fully resistant opponent).
I like to shred in the midst of my groundwork. I like to get a mount position, stretch my opponent out, and give him trouble with the shred while keeping his head in between the ground and my chest. Usually he will flinch in a way that opens him up for a nice armbar anyway.

You can't simply "shred" from long distance either. You have to use skill in the boxing range, the kickboxing range, etc. to get into the clinching range. Once in the clinch, you need strength, balance, and base to keep from being tossed on your head. Shredding becomes a tool to give an edge here if the opponent is trapped to you and is forced to suddenly continually go on the defensive.

The shred is not anything secret or mystical. It's a realistic tool that can be trained with resistance (goggles can be worn to protect eyes, etc.) and can be added to an already existing repertoire of MMA skills.
It has nothing to do with simply "eye gouging" an opponent.

It is a behaviorally/psychologically based tool that interrupts the body's defense/offense systems.
If anything it can be used to give openinings in the clinch or the ground. Definitely something that does have merit in my opinion.

That doesn't mean I won't use my low single, rear naked, or kimura when I can. But it's nice to have something else I can actually field test and see work in my training against resisting opponents.

Hope this clears up some misconceptions. Rich is a genuinely nice and ethical individual, and I fully respect him for that. I believe he has a lot of knowledge on what he does, and has some good experience behind him.
His concept has been working for me for the last year.....and I train it with people who are punching my face with gloves, kicking my thighs with hard kicks, armbarring me from the ground, and trying to choke me out from behind. :)

Take care,
Ryu

[The Wastrel]

See, this is how you defend your system. Good work guys. This is so much better than attackproof did.

[Ryu]

I like to think that any system that is logical and has sound strategy can be talked about in logical ways. :) If one can't talk about a system logically...well that says a lot about the system in my opinion.

Take care.
Ryu

[Prone]

Thanks for the sig Ronin :D

[Matt W.]

Again, you have to see it.

That may be. Which brings up a point I wanted to make. You said...The Gracies didn't invent anything new when they developed GJJ. But they developed innovative ways off applying their range of fighting.

So, if senshido and The Shredder are supposed to be like that, why haven;t I seen it? I mean, I've seen the Gracies. There are dozens of videos of real fights in the ring, in challenge matches and even some on THE STREET (tm) where the Gracies demonstrate their style's effectiveness. Where are the similar videos of Dimitri and hsi students demonstrating the effectiveness of their style in real fights? Where are the recorded challenge matches of Dimitri defeating people with his style? I didn't see any on his website.

Regards,
Matt