The Fallacy of the deadly.

[shoushutiger]

northern styles emphasize legwork more, are less 'in your face', and have fluid stances, then again, most northern styles wouldn't work with sanda rules, as much of those styles work off of groin, eyes, etc. you know, the no-holds barred stuff. Or, this may make you think those martial arts are bullshit and not applicable. And if you fight sanda then they probably won't help too much. Examples are changquan(long fist), Pao chui, Mi Tzu, Baji, Eagle Claw, etc. most of them are connected to long fist.

[Asriel]

northern styles emphasize legwork more, are less 'in your face', and have fluid stances, then again, most northern styles wouldn't work with sanda rules, as much of those styles work off of groin, eyes, etc. you know, the no-holds barred stuff. Or, this may make you think those martial arts are bullshit and not applicable. And if you fight sanda then they probably won't help too much. Examples are changquan(long fist), Pao chui, Mi Tzu, Baji, Eagle Claw, etc. most of them are connected to long fist.
When I was still learning Kung Fu (7 star Mantis) I used to teach a seperate San Da class and it was simple enough to teach Mantis within the San Da Ruleset. It only takes a little common sense to know what works with Gloves on and what doesn't.

[socratic]

northern styles emphasize legwork more, are less 'in your face', and have fluid stances, then again, most northern styles wouldn't work with sanda rules, as much of those styles work off of groin, eyes, etc. you know, the no-holds barred stuff. Or, this may make you think those martial arts are bullshit and not applicable. And if you fight sanda then they probably won't help too much. Examples are changquan(long fist), Pao chui, Mi Tzu, Baji, Eagle Claw, etc. most of them are connected to long fist.

The three main Internal styles (Bagua, Xingyi, Tai Chi Chuan) all have a great track-record in the Lei Tai historically speaking, and I think there's some relatively successful practitioners about. I figure anything that teaches you the necessary skills (striking, blocking, takedowns etc) would work well. Then again, it's also heavily dependant on the quality of the teaching- there's very few, in my experience, who teach for competitive use, and thus, aggressively.

[dwhomp]

most northern styles wouldn't work with sanda rules, as much of those styles work off of groin, eyes, etc. you know, the no-holds barred stuff. Or, this may make you think those martial arts are bullshit and not applicable.

Pretty much that is what I think. Arts that claim they cant do full contact because of No Holds Barred deadliness:

1. Couldnt do a fraction of what they claim against the unwilling.

2. Never realize that the other guy can jab an eye or grab a set of nuts just like the other guy can.

[shoushutiger]

All true, but groin shots and back of the neck shots would be hard for me to let go. When we spar at my school, light strikes to the groin are allowed(with cups on obviously), as well as strikes to anwhere on the neck, and against the glands under the jaw. (lightly of course, out of common courtesy and care for the opponent, whom you know and train with often). Saying you can't compete because of an excuse like this means that you are a mediocre, or less than that martial artist, and claiming this hurts the repuation of you, and the style you represent.

But, in contrast, training with these, then making the jump to ufc rules, may put many practitioners at a disadvantage, and it may take some time adapting to not using illegal strikes. I have gotten out of many situations with a good snapkick to the groin, and taking that away may have costed me a lost match. And, in a serious fighting situation, there are no rules, so one should be trained, I believe in the cheap-shots as well.

[It is Fake]

But, in contrast, training with these, then making the jump to ufc rules, may put many practitioners at a disadvantage, and it may take some time adapting to not using illegal strikes. I have gotten out of many situations with a good snapkick to the groin, and taking that away may have costed me a lost match. And, in a serious fighting situation, there are no rules, so one should be trained, I believe in the cheap-shots as well.You realize this is a lame ass excuse. All this shit was allowed in the first UFCs and none of it worked. The only thing that helped was hair pulling.

Guess what A GJJ, stylists did that and won his match. So, minus one for the deadly kung fu.

[shoushutiger]

again, I said it was a lame ass excuse, I just believe that cheap shots should still be taught. Thats all.

[It is Fake]

Why. If A MT guy can kick you in the inner thigh he can kick you in the groin.

If I can punch you in the eye I can gouge you.

[meataxe]

You don't exactly have to spend 7 years meditating in a cave to learn how to kick someone in the nuts.:toothy12:

[dwhomp]

I agree, crap and lame excuse. Anyone who thinks that eye gouges, throat, back of the neck are easy to perform are in delusion and do not have enough sparring experience.

I will say, we spend a great deal of time working on certain things that COULD result in teh deadlie. Key word is "could". But it is the DELIVERY and the anatomy that we focus on, not the "He Do then I Do".

But also these rules are there for a purpose in today's fighting sports. They are there for a reason. (Although i dont really know what they are anymore)

But to say that you "cant give up" your teh deadlie...

[hoodedmonk]

Why. If A MT guy can kick you in the inner thigh he can kick you in the groin.

If I can punch you in the eye I can gouge you.True! however speaking from experience! A punch in the eye and being gauged in the eye have different results!

[It is Fake]

I know, I've been gouged twice.

I'm saying if I can throw a punch and hit you in the eye, I'm basically training the eye gouge.

No need to "separate" into the deadly category.

[Teh El Macho]

All true, but groin shots and back of the neck shots would be hard for me to let go.Why? Are you some sort of inflexible T1 robot with read-only memory?

Sorry for the cheap shot, but I don't know what to make from that sentence.

When we spar at my school, light strikes to the groin are allowed(with cups on obviously), as well as strikes to anwhere on the neck, and against the glands under the jaw. (lightly of course, out of common courtesy and care for the opponent, whom you know and train with often).When you train at a harder-level of contact, what do you do with those techniques? Do you still do them, or do you just stop using them? Or do you not train at a harder-level of contact?

But, in contrast, training with these, then making the jump to ufc rules, may put many practitioners at a disadvantage, and it may take some time adapting to not using illegal strikes. First, it's not UFC rules. It can be PRIDE rules, IFL rules. I think it would be preferable to use the term MMA rules (as in rules enforced in a given MMA event, which usually exclude the techniques you are referring to.)

The second thing to notice is that those practitioners would be put at a disavantage if they don't train for MMA, in particular for the MMA rules of a particular event and the environment (cage vs ropes). A person may know how to kick the living shit out of people and grapple enough to turn most mortals into a pretzel. But if that person is not training for MMA, he is already at a disavantage.

The third thing to consider is that the practioners you suggest may be at a disavantage, they may be so, but not because of the reasons you are offering. I'd venture to say that they will be at a disavantage NOT because they have to adapt to a set of techniques without teh d34dl3y. The reason would be intensity in training.

Anyone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think such a person is too accostumed to train with groin kicks and that type of stuff (assuming it's even possible to train at a light level of contact and still make it an effective form of training.) He's accostumed t a light level of training, but not to an intensive level of standup sparring (speed and aggression) as one would necessitate to compete in MMA.

It would be the lack of training under intense pressure that would put such a practitioner at a dissavantage.
I have gotten out of many situations with a good snapkick to the groin, and taking that away may have costed me a lost match. And, in a serious fighting situation, there are no rules, so one should be trained, I believe in the cheap-shots as well.That's a fallacy. If you can kick someone in the shin while wearing shoes (as you would in a real street/SD scenario), you can kick to the balls.

What exactly makes these cheap-shots so complicated that they cannot be executed from a position in which you can execute other, higher percentage techniques?

I've kicked people on the nuts to great effect, twice. And by great effect I don't mean to drop them on the floor (you can kill someone like that btw). I could if would have wanted to. But with great effect to go ouch and scare them shitless. And I've never taken any standup class worth a shit, much less train for a groin kick. It's natural.

As for eye gouges, you can't eye gouge from a distance (as you could punch). You have to be within clinch range, and you have to have positional control (either standing or on the ground), and you have to deal with his punches, escapes and the possibility he can do the same to you... and full speed (as in a real case scenario).

How can that one even possibly train for that eye-gouging scenario. You can't. But you can train everything else. If you have all those, you can eye gouge (turning a cross face to an eye gouge is not rocket science... same with groin kicks.)

What is so special about a groin kick that makes it fundamentally different from a front kick to the shin/knee cap or stomach? What makes it so special that you have to train it? What is so special about it that makes it impossible for a human of normal intelligence and physical abilities that trains all other kicks to convert one of those into a kick to the groin under pressure, in particular when he's being protected by shoes as it would occur in an real-life scenario that requires to kick somebody in the balls?

[M1K3]

How can that one even possibly train for that eye-gouging scenario. You can't. But you can train everything else. If you have all those, you can eye gouge (turning a cross face to an eye gouge is not rocket science... same with groin kicks.)



Usually I just lurk in the styles forum. I enjoy reading the posts and can't really speak to the subject. However I have to say I totally agree with El Macho. If you can't train it you probably won't be very effective at using it. However I do have one technical question on his post though. El Macho could you explain how to turn a groin kick into an eye gouge. Video if you can. Thanks.:happy:

[Scott Larson]

I think the problem is that people who say they have to use eye pokes and groin kicks think that one of these attacks will end the fight 100% of the time.

Also, In my opinion, it is irresponsible to not know how to refrain from using these types of attacks, as certain situations require different amounts of force.

I don't think it is a good thing to disintegrate everyones balls that you fight with.

[It is Fake]

I think the problem is that people who say they have to use eye pokes and groin kicks think that one of these attacks will end the fight 100% of the time.

Also, as El Macho stated, that grapplers and sport fighters don't know how to use the same techniques.