Rogue Xingyiquan

[AlWest]

I haven't really introduced myself, and this is my first post. As I'm not sure of the etiquette around here and I'm posting out of urgency, I will just say a few words and get down to things.
I'm English, and I train in Xingyiquan, having previously done Judo for a while when I was younger, and Changquan for a while as well (the only part of my Changquan that I like is "gong li quan" - very subtle form). I have trained in the system only for a few years (it will be about 6 years since I started in June this year) with a father of a Chinese friend of mine. He does not teach openly, but he is good, and I am 100% positive that his xingyiquan is not bullshido. The only rule he has is really not to throw out a lot of hot air when discussing martial arts, and not to discuss which style or teacher is best. I will be in Taiwan starting this summer, to study, but I also intend to get extra martial tuition, and I've done lots of research, as has my teacher, into good instructors in the ROC.
Anyway, the point of my quick registration and posting: I saw the most dreadful thing I've ever seen in my life on Youtube. I know, I know, you shouldn't go searching for good martial arts videos on Youtube (although I have seen a few that were more than passable), but this... this takes the damn biscuit. I've never in my life seen worse martial arts, especially something purporting to be as great, in this practitioner's opinion, as Xingyiquan. I probably won't post any more on this site, I just wanted to inform everyone of this, so that they can put out a notice against this school, if there isn't one already. The URL is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kjLGbwkexQ
Enjoy. Or, as I did, weep.

[meng_mao]

Al, you shouldn't be surprised -- this is representative of the quality of a lot of schools out there.

Depends on what the student wants though. If he is truly seeking to learn how to fight effectively, he's deluding himself. He should be smarter than that.

[AlWest]

Wow. Really? That's terrible. I agree, it is partly due to the student's wants, but if he just did some research - even just using the internet - he'd see that ALL of his movements were wrong, that the principles have not been grasped, and so on.
The problem is that people are labelling something as xingyiquan, when it verifiably is not, and I thought that xingyi was reasonably bullshido-free. Oh well, goes to show you never can tell.

[isol8d]

maybe he was testing in Hap Ki Do or Tae Kwon Do....

Yoo's Authentic Martial Arts (http://www.yoosmartialartsusa.com/)

[meng_mao]

I thought that xingyi was reasonably bullshido-free.
I think you'd be hard put to make the case that any CMA is bullshido-free.

From my own experience, it's difficult to elevate your studies above your teacher tells you, if you don't aggressively hound after the 'truth.'
When I was young, I took taichi at the local chinese association weekend events. It was taught by some really old guy who would show us good form, but not explain what these forms were for in any true combat context. For example, at the end of grasp swallow's tail, there's a shoulder check movement called kao, I believe. We were told this is to knock your opponent away from you, and to try to transfer your upright upperbody forward using your leg strength. An entirely reasonable explanation and reasonable move, but I wasn't equipped to explore the true execution of it.

In the long run, I abandoned taichi because I was looking to learn fighting principles, and I failed to see how any of it was combat-relevant (since it was never denied that we wouldn't be able to use this in a fight or self-defense). In the early parts though, I didn't know enough to say, "This is bullshido. I need to learn more effective techniques and engage in better training." I just didn't have a good enough understanding of fighting.

Now when I eventually did get into kickboxing, I joyfully tested the shoulder check on a heavy bag, discovering in the process the things I would have learned initially, if I'd had the right teacher and the right teaching: the effective range (short), how to explode with my legs, etc.

Conclusion -- if you know nothing at all about fighting, it's difficult to know that the way you're being taught is insufficient. The longer you go though, as long as you're seeking the truth, the more glaring the holes should become.

[dwhomp]

1. I use that video to show others what happens when Xing Yi is learned at a weekend seminar. Bad XY looks like good karate.

2. Also shows how easy XY is to learn and how bad it can be without good instruction

3. In ref to Meng above: You are right. When labeled with the rest of CMA, most if not all have some ullshit to em. However, grappling and kickboxing are no different; I could point to a bit of bullshit that is taught here that is garbage. Those of us that fight/spar in these realms chose Xing Yi just for the fact of its fighting. This is shown by many of the more well known XY instructors in the US and China that frequently enter or train students for full contact events and such.

I connot speak to other CMA study as I dont have experience with them short of the occasional sparring with em.

[meng_mao]

1. Bad XY looks like good karate.
/shakes head/ Honestly, that is unfairly insulting to karate.

[It is Fake]

/shakes head/ Honestly, that is unfairly insulting to karate.Welcome to CMA Bias 101.

Yet, it reinforces your previous statement of:

I think you'd be hard put to make the case that any CMA is bullshido-free.

[dwhomp]

Reposted below

[dwhomp]

Welcome to CMA Bias 101.

Yet, it reinforces your previous statement of:

That any art has Bullshito in it.

Yep, I agree. You think it is limited to CMA or anything else? There is some in every art.

[AlWest]

How can you learn Xingyi at a seminar? You could probably learn how to form Santishi, but not how to perfect it by any means, at a single seminar. Or even, a dozen seminars. I don't know about other xingyi practitioners, but I think that each of the five fists has enough in it to warrant a whole volume of descriptive analysis. Take paoquan, for instance - the follow step, pounding foot, turning of the waist, rotating out of the upper, defensive hand, the forming of the fist and twisting of the front hand; all have to be entirely co-ordinated and happen at the same time to generate that power. Add into that maintaining correct posture - head straight, tongue up - and integrations - front laogong, baihui and front yongquan all have to line up - and you have a technique that takes about 2,000 attempts to get right. And then if we get into the even more detailed internal power analysis, such as the upward whip of the spine combined with a subtle push with the feet, and then the actual form that the power takes (a vibrating power, instead of a crushing power)..... And that's before we've even looked at the health implications. You can't learn that at a seminar, I don't think, unless that seminar happens to be several years in length and be able to accommodate a massive amount of practise.
Thing is, the lianhuan wasn't even correct in terms of movement. If you look at any good practitioner's lianhuan, it doesn't look anything like that. But, I suppose MengMao is right on the money, and if you aren't aware of it or searching for it beforehand, the truth of the movement won't be revealed to you.

[Goju - Joe]

1. I use that video to show others what happens when Xing Yi is learned at a weekend seminar. Bad XY looks like good karate.

2. Also shows how easy XY is to learn and how bad it can be without good instruction

3. In ref to Meng above: You are right. When labeled with the rest of CMA, most if not all have some ullshit to em. However, grappling and kickboxing are no different; I could point to a bit of bullshit that is taught here that is garbage. Those of us that fight/spar in these realms chose Xing Yi just for the fact of its fighting. This is shown by many of the more well known XY instructors in the US and China that frequently enter or train students for full contact events and such.

I connot speak to other CMA study as I dont have experience with them short of the occasional sparring with em.

The issue of BS in Kung Fu is exposed a bit in the videos comments. Not proper form and so on and so forth.

Can the guy actually fight or apply any of that?

In grappling and kickboxing there's an empircal test known as competition that clears the clutter. In from based MA - CMA's most Karate and such, not so much. ( and yes I know there's forms compettions but they're subjective not empirical in nature)

[dwhomp]

/shakes head/ Honestly, that is unfairly insulting to karate.

And this is not what this WHOLE forum is based on?

I feel I do need to be more honest.

Yes, I am very bias in regards to Xing Yi. 98% of other CMA I think are garbage.

I would also say that is true of most of the karate guys I have sparred against, so yes, I have little respect for it.

Just as I have no respect for these guys that get on their gis and roll around on a mat with no striking. To me? That is pure crap and pointless (outside of a game or sport).

[dwhomp]

The issue of BS in Kung Fu is exposed a bit in the videos comments. Not proper form and so on and so forth.

Can the guy actually fight or apply any of that?

In grappling and kickboxing there's an empircal test known as competition that clears the clutter. In from based MA - CMA's most Karate and such, not so much. ( and yes I know there's forms compettions but they're subjective not empirical in nature)

I would agree 100%. A Xing Yi practioner would most likely lose any forms competition out there. It would be like having a boxer or thai boxers doing the same.

I also agree that the contact competition does help to clear the clutter. It also does that for me as well in my own art/training/practice. I fully intend on going to the next Chicago Throwdown for this very reason.

[AlWest]

The issue of BS in Kung Fu is exposed a bit in the videos comments. Not proper form and so on and so forth.

Can the guy actually fight or apply any of that?

In grappling and kickboxing there's an empircal test known as competition that clears the clutter. In from based MA - CMA's most Karate and such, not so much. ( and yes I know there's forms compettions but they're subjective not empirical in nature)
True. But even if he could apply those movements, he is not practising xingyi. So even if he turned out to be the best fighter in the world, he should call what he is practising something else.
We do have sparring in CMA. But until you can perform the movements correctly solo, free-style sparring is not a good idea. Xingyi is a remarkably subtle way to fight, and like all CMA, it takes a certain amount of time to learn, but it is hardly impossible to become a good fighter. In fact, when I look at Jeet Kuen Do, I basically see a lot of what looks like xingyi, with a very practical, streetfighting bent. The concept of trapping is important in xingyi - for instance, one of the postural requirements is, "hu kou yao yuan", the tiger's mouth must round. This makes trapping easier and more natural, as the tiger mouth gap will naturally fold onto an opponent's arm when the movement of parrying and overturning is done correctly. I recently purchased Lamar M Davis II's book, "Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do: Scientific Streetfighting", and I was fascinated by a number of the more advanced applications - they are identical to xingyi applications at a higher level. And the concept of stop kicks is something that I learnt within a xingyi context, and think of as the best way to deal with leg attacks and quick forward movement.
What I'm saying is, this guy's posture and movement is so off, that fighting is practically impossible at almost any level. His tiger mouth certainly isn't round, for a start. So if he fights, it proves nothing about his xingyi skill, even if he wins. That's how I see it, anyway, and it may not be the orthodox or traditional view, but his form belies the fact that his skill cannot be good at all. And his body mechanics (or if you want to be all traditional and call it "internal power" or whatever else) are not good at all. None of the principles is adhered to, and since principles are all that an art is, he is not performing xingyiquan.
Also, side note: not all traditional CMA are form-based. Take a look at Baiyuan Tongbeiquan, a northern style. Few movements, one form, not taken seriously and not a major part of training at most levels for most practitioners. Repetitive drills of fistic techniques and footwork are what make up the style, along with relaxation exercises - in particular, of the arm, the aim being to imitate the white gibbon, or Baiyuan, which has long arms. They take offense if you say it's an animal imitation style, though.

[dwhomp]

We do have sparring in CMA. But until you can perform the movements correctly solo, free-style sparring is not a good idea.

I can agree with most of your post except for the above.