Death Touch/Dim Mak Investigation Theory Thread

[glad2bhere]

Are you aware of anyone who has claimed they can manipulate PPs to cause those effects?

No, and that is exactly why I am suggesting this.

What I have found is that when discussions come around to discussing DIM MAK the usual response is that such techniques are far too lethal to be played with, and perhaps they are. I just don't know. I also know that there is at least one person who issued a challenge to be knocked-out with a no-touch Ki technique and would award $1000 to the first person who could do that. Again I don't know if this would tell us anything or not.

The thing I am thinking of is that if manipulation of the meridians, and by extension, the flow of Chi is a reality and not merely the power of suggestion, certain bits ought to hold true.

a.) First the technique should work whether a person is quescient on a table in an office, or moving around a ring, yes?

b.) Secondly, the technique should work with the same level of stimulus that one might use in a therapeutic setting. Accupressure indicates 5 to 10 lbs pressure on a given spot.

c.) Thirdly the response should be measureable and involve some involuntary system of the body such as the digestive system, endocrine system or metabolism rate.

d.) As a last point I also think that there should be some level of immediacy meaning that a reaction of recognizable import would occur within a relatively short period from the manipulation.

Speaking for myself, when I go to my Acupuncturist, quiet and relaxation are the order of the day. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[It is Fake]

I moved this from the PP DM thread. I feel we will get in to a huge thread drift and we need to keep the other thread more of a definition based link.


I think this is an interesting point. How would we really investigate Death Touch? Like G2, I have heard it is "too deadly" to be practiced. Yet, it is funny that there are delayed KO's that no one has ever experienced.

To me this is the rub. I hit 2 points and the third I hit you in a legit weak spot. You go down and even though it was fraudulent/non-mystical, you can't prove me wrong.

[ErikW]

This vid has been posted numerous times before but has some particular application to your questions concerning independent proof that a touch, no-touch, or light touch PP, meridian, or "chi" manipulation has "some" discernible affect on the human body.

In the following investigation, the reporter brought along a couple paramedics who measured basic vitals during the act of KO'ing various students of the instructor. The paramedics come in at about 1:50.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar1yXYOsxQk

There is also a medical journal article out there which provides fairly empirical commentary and study on the effect, or lack there of, that PP and no-touch chi manipulation has.

I'll see if I can dig it up from somewhere. Judah (a/k/a "samurai steve") may have a copy of it.

[lee]

l believe its the one l saw on the news and he also tried some other spots and smacked the girl really hard and gave a lame excuse when it didnt work. one of my students students insisted on going to one of dillmans seminars . they stood in a line and he went down the line all of his students s who were my guess there teacher learned from dillman went down. non of my students students were affected so after that they were ignored. my sifu and my si-gung said its a myth. the supposed deaths from that is probably from a death after a challenge match from internal injuries that werent discovered in time. when the bare knuckle tournement in taiwan was started up after ww11 in early 70s two died one of a broken neck the other of a leaking spleen 200 years ago the spleen wouldnt have been discovered. we believe the hit on time and so on came from stories from a time when teachers of martial arts were not really well educated and were superstitious . that they had to have some explination for there students so as not to look stupid . these stories have been around for years and in my 4 plus decades in tma . l have never had it done to me or seen it. l know you can create pain from points used for accupuncture some will work on some and not on others due to thikness of muscle tissue . some the points are deeper harder to damage depends on the person .

[Cullion]

l believe its the one l saw on the news and he also tried some other spots and smacked the girl really hard and gave a lame excuse when it didnt work. one of my students students insisted on going to one of dillmans seminars . they stood in a line and he went down the line all of his students s who were my guess there teacher learned from dillman went down. non of my students students were affected so after that they were ignored. my sifu and my si-gung said its a myth. the supposed deaths from that is probably from a death after a challenge match from internal injuries that werent discovered in time. when the bare knuckle tournement in taiwan was started up after ww11 in early 70s two died one of a broken neck the other of a leaking spleen 200 years ago the spleen wouldnt have been discovered. we believe the hit on time and so on came from stories from a time when teachers of martial arts were not really well educated and were superstitious . that they had to have some explination for there students so as not to look stupid . these stories have been around for years and in my 4 plus decades in tma . l have never had it done to me or seen it. l know you can create pain from points used for accupuncture some will work on some and not on others due to thikness of muscle tissue . some the points are deeper harder to damage depends on the person .

Here endeth the lesson. This thread need go no further.

[Mr. Mantis]

Thank you for sharing lee. That is my understanding of the whole dim mak issue as well.

[Mr. Mantis]

Here endeth the lesson. This thread need go no further.
I know, I should lock the thread.

[lee]

thank you

[glad2bhere]

So metabolic process and digestion = Dim Mak?

Gee, I HOPE not. What I was working to do was to set-up some sort of project by which we could tell if the sort of "soft" manipulation of meridian points that is suppose to produce a "delayed death touch" could actually produce ANY change in involuntary processes in the human body under dynamic conditions. Does this help? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[glad2bhere]

Whoa! Hold on a second. I'm afraid that as a researcher I have to speak up here. This is not what I would call "objective".

First off, the clip did not show people under a dynamic situation. The fact is that I think anyone can probably hit somebody, at rest, in the jaw or neck and knock them back. Further I take issue with the idea that the teacher posits that only about "40%" of people are susceptible "...and atletes are the hardest". We all have the same bodies and the Ki circulation ought be the same, yes?

Secondly, performing on one's students is not exactly what I would call "un-biased".

Thirdly, the "no touch" is not "no-touch" if, as in the case of the last few subjects, the teacher is actually making contact with the forehead, temple or neck, yes?

Now the fact is that I don't really have a dog in this fight. However, I would like to make a position for doing good research and sound methodology. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[blacktiger]

There seems to me to be a bit of a red herring here. Every rumor I have heard about DT is based around manipulation of the pulse/blood. I think the whole PP thing is a kind of quack non-sequetor. I have never seen how the manipulation of just the musculature and nervous system could have any real detrimental effect on the heart and other organs aside from massive force being applied to from the outside. There isnt even a psuedo science around it and anything I believe in has to have science to back it up. The no-touch thing is an even further digression of the idea.

Specifically, I would like to know if anyone here believes that the manipulation of the pulse/blood from outside can have an ill effect on people. Does anyone know why it would or wouldnt work? I dont think it is required to prove "in the ring". Hell, I would be happy to accept that it only worked on compliant/incappacitated/unsuspecting people as long as there is real science behind it.

And I agree with g2b. If the thread is to be about investigative theories about DT or DM then simple word of mouth, regardless of how correct or incorrect they very well may be, should be accepted but not held as emperical fact.

[OnceLost]

I'm not sure there would be a way to establish a control unless the sample size was absolutely huge...other than that, I think you'd get an Ignoble Award for even attempting something like this.

[glad2bhere]

I wonder if anyone knows a competent/licensed Accupunturist who might be willing to participate in an experiment or, series of experiments. I am sure that any number of athletic individuals would be willing to volunteer as "guinea pigs". As I mentioned before we don't need to be talking about lethal techniques here. All I am interested to know at this juncture is whether or not a person can invoke an involuntary response in a person simply by virture of touching a point (or series of points) under dynamic conditions. Thoughts?

BTW: Not to be difficult about this but for myself I would not characterize consciouness or self-report by a volunteer as acceptable. As far as such things as pulse rate, or heart beat, I think we would need a control to measure a similar experience but not targeted against a meridian point. Hope this last makes sense.


Best Wishes,

Bruce

[glad2bhere]

I think I would like to pursue this, but may probably do more with the other thread. That seems to be moving in the direction of actually testing if we can either prove or debunk the idea of manipulating meridians/qi-flow in orer to elicit a response. The way I figure it, if we can produce an involuntary response under dynamic conditions maybe there is an outside chance of a case for all this "Death Touch" talk. Otherwise, I think we ought to take it out back and give it a respectful burial as an artifact of a past age, yes?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[ErikW]

Why are you trying to reinvent the wheel? here, have the entire abstract of the following study pulled or ordered and read through for yourself...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10726434&dopt=Abstract

From and empirical/scientific/mathematic perspective, any debate about the "existence" of the "death touch" IS all theoretical and academic "what if's" at this point; unless you are an old school Qi Gong zealot or a severely indoctrinated George Dillman lemming.

[Mr. Mantis]

I am all for taking a qi gong master who purports to have dim mak capabilities, and let him dim mak a death row inmate.

However, I don't know any dim mak masters. Though I did know of a person who said he knew it. But I don't know. I think he could just hit very, very hard. And I don't know any governors who will let us take such a person into a prison to administer death by dim mak.

I see what you are interested in though, and I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around the "method" portion of your emperical study. How do you propose to do this study over what may have been done in the journal article Goldenjonas posted?