Oh Noes the Dim Mak vs Pressure Point thread.

[It is Fake]

Okay, in the last few months I've noticed this fascination with Dim Mak. IMO I've also noticed that people merge Dim Mak with Pressure points (not entirely their fault).

I personally make a distinctiuon between the two.


Pressure points exist and ARE NOT TEH D34DLY.
Dim Mak is TEH D34DLY and is bullshido.

I have a couple posts where I was trying to make the distinction. I'll find them and copy them to this thread.

Logical debate and questions will be cool, trolling will get nuked. Sorry, this is a very touchy subject.

I'd love to hear both sides.

[Neildo]

I fully agree.

[SifuJason]

Initially, I would agree with your assessment. However, with further thought and analysis of my MA education, and in the spirit of debate, I would suggest that Dim Mak does not necessarily have to be bullshido, but often is.

Good Dim Mak as I have understood it is the application of Iron Hand techniques along with poisons (powders and liquids of various forms) such that when you strike an opponent in certain locations, the skin is appreciably punctured and the poison is administered.

[Neildo]

Like 'Bhuddas Palm' from that Iron monkey movie?

[WorldWarCheese]

Well, isn't Dim Mak just the knowledge of various pressure points put together then slowly because of just random crazy people out there it slowly diverged from its pressure point origins into what it is today?

I've watched a Dim Mak vid (yes, I own it. I got caught up in t3h d34dly, whatever) and some of the striking locations are really pressure points along the human body. None are deadly, but they ARE actual pressure points.

[Bang!]

Here's a version of a real honest-to-gosh pressure point in action:

In BJJ, a standard takedown is the cinturada (which I'm probably butchering the spelling of). From double underhooks, you then then cinch your hands around the opponent's waist gripping on the far side. From there, you will generally hook one of their legs -- as in a trip -- and step through to take the person to the ground. One generally just turns their head to the side and uses it to create a little bit of high pressure.

Now -- for the first time -- the deadly tai chi version!!111

While there's more emphasis on circularity, it's basically the same takedown. However, instead of turning your head to the side, you dig your chin into the person's coracoid process, which really helps trigger a wicked awesome SCARS-style reaction that makes them more likely to lean backwards.

Coracoid process?

Here (http://www.nysora.com/techniques/infraclavicular_brachial_plexus_block/files/infra22_s.jpg)

It's the bony protrusion just under the number one. You can find it by locating the lateral third of your collar bone and then tracing a line down and inward, pressing down until something makes you go, "Owee zowee!"

I like this example for a few reasons:
1. It requires a little bit of anatomical knowledge
2. It's an added dimension to an existing technique
3. It shows that you already have to be able to do shit before you can apply it.

[socratic]

Chris Crudelli's 'Mind, Body & Kickass Moves' did a section on Dim Mak, though I'll admit that Crudelli is big on 'esoteric energies', if you catch my drift, so it gets quite thoroughly caught up in the supposed deadly nature of these techniques.

They seem to suggest that Dim Mak is done via chi manipulation, which to me at least seems like a red flag for bullshido, but the host (Chris Crudelli) points out that 'a litttle bit of mind control' is involved; to my mind, it looks more like psychology than actual attacks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hs8mblcgTsk

(The best footage of 'Dim Mak' is in the first minuteish. Chris mentions 'pressure points', at about 1:40, but I'd assume, since they're accupuncture points, that he means chi meridians.)

On the other hand, pressure points seem to be the real deal, having had pressure put on some of mine (suprise suprise, it hurt) and whatnot.

[glad2bhere]

It may be worthwhile to remember that when discusssing something like "dim mak" that there are cross-cultural and informational issues to be considered.

The use of the Chinese model to explain the manner in which health ad disease are explained has been able to make its way into modern medicine because the Chinese culture historically eschewed the "scientific model" when it came to studies such as Physiology and Anatomy. In this way, while a fractured rib was rather easy to diagnose, a thrombosis to the cardial muscle, rupture of lung tissue, or the violation of any of the sacs that hold these structures in place would have been quite a mystery. The same might be said of the sub-dural hematoma which can still take a life in our modern world when it goes undiagnosed.

I think its important to remember that in many part of Asian culture, until after World War Two, the development of simply muscular strength through systematic conditioning was still viewed as "accruing Ki" rather than amassing mitachondria in the muscle cells. I think if I was discussing "dim mak" I would probably up-date the frame of reference for how damage to structures is assessed. Whatever one might call it, a rupture to the Liver is still a rupture to the liver, right? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Southpaw]

Okay, in the last few months I've noticed this fascination with Dim Mak. IMO I've also noticed that people merge Dim Mak with Pressure points (not entirely their fault).

I personally make a distinctiuon between the two.


Pressure points exist and ARE NOT TEH D34DLY.
Dim Mak is TEH D34DLY and is bullshido.



I totally agree that they are not the deadly with regards to being targets for strikes in a real fight that promise to end the fight immediately.

However...there are examples of say...a third baseman taking a hard ground ball to the temple off of a bad hop and dying. So...there is a possibility that they can be the deadly. :)

Very, very, very rare...but it has happened.

[Tom Kagan]

I never learned Dim Mak and I never want to. Some night, I might be touching myself, make a mistake, and I'd die.


A little trivia: Dim Mak is the name of a child's game in Toisan, China. It's kind of like a mix of freeze tag and base tag.

[It is Fake]

Initially, I would agree with your assessment. However, with further thought and analysis of my MA education, and in the spirit of debate, I would suggest that Dim Mak does not necessarily have to be bullshido, but often is.

Good Dim Mak as I have understood it is the application of Iron Hand techniques along with poisons (powders and liquids of various forms) such that when you strike an opponent in certain locations, the skin is appreciably punctured and the poison is administered.
Well, I'd have to disagree with you here and say this is a mixture of information.

What you described sounds like Poison Hand training which is different than Dim Mak.

I also agree with your assessment Southpaw but, disagree with the method. I'd still catergorize that example with pressure points not Dim Mak. Weaker areas in the body that cause pain.

I got to find those posts. My position is a little to vague. I agree you can die from temple strikes, a perfectly timed strike to the chest (baseball again) etc.

Still, Dim Mak is a set of techniques that require activation of certain points on the body, at times of the day, to induced delayed reactions including death.

[It is Fake]

Oh and thanks SifuJason.

That brought us right into my next point. Poison Hand. I would love to find any books or research in this area. I would love to know how much this attributed to Dim Mak. Once I stopped believing in the bullshido aspect of Dim Mak I started looking for info.

What I alway seemed to come across was IP+PH= Dim Mak. I was told by my old GM that, IP was used to toughen the hands to protect against the more caustic poison. The practitioners of poison hand supposedly ingested small amounts of poison to build up tolerance. They also kept their fingernails relatively sharp for scratching and piercing.

Hence the delayed reaction and the possible birth of Dim Mak. Purely conjecture on my part of course but, it seems plausible to me.

[SpringHeeledJack]

I got to find those posts.
If it helps you find what you want, and if I remember correctly, I was involved in one of these disussions with you and someone else. We hit on all these things being discussed. I tried to figure out which thread it was, but failed. I, for the life of me, can't remember which thread it was in.

[Edit-Looking back on this post, I now see that it provides absolutely no help. Sorry]

[It is Fake]

If it helps you find what you want, and if I remember correctly, I was involved in one of these disussions with you and someone else. We hit on all these things being discussed. I tried to figure out which thread it was, but failed. I, for the life of me, can't remember which thread it was in.

[Edit-Looking back on this post, I now see that it provides absolutely no help. Sorry]No worries I think it was a medium mike thread. I'm looking as we speak.

[SifuJason]

Oh and thanks SifuJason.

That brought us right into my next point. Poison Hand. I would love to find any books or research in this area. I would love to know how much this attributed to Dim Mak. Once I stopped believing in the bullshido aspect of Dim Mak I started looking for info.

What I alway seemed to come across was IP+PH= Dim Mak. I was told by my old GM that, IP was used to toughen the hands to protect against the more caustic poison. The practitioners of poison hand supposedly ingested small amounts of poison to build up tolerance. They also kept their fingernails relatively sharp for scratching and piercing.

Hence the delayed reaction and the possible birth of Dim Mak. Purely conjecture on my part of course but, it seems plausible to me.

Your welcome.

I agree that what I was describing earlier is indeed poison hand; although like you said, once you get passed the bullshido of Dim Mak what seems to be left is IP + PH. My GM has also described Dim Mak to me this way.

Your initial conjecture does seem correct, that the application of poison could be the source of the delayed-kill myth, but I think it will be hard to sort out. Another source of the myth could be the application of strikes that cause slow internal bleeding, resulting in a delayed death.

[Fitz]

Still, Dim Mak is a set of techniques that require activation of certain points on the body, at times of the day, to induced delayed reactions including death.

I've been meaning to look a bit more closely into the Chinese "Dim Mak" material to see if there is a corrolation between known anatomical points of weakness, etc. If anyone has any decent traditional sources on the topic I'd be interested in reading anything you have.

I can't speak to all Dim mak points but a fair number of the cranial points that I've seen coincide with skeletal suture points, particularly the so-called "Gall Bladder Meridian" that runs almost exactly along the Squamous Suture. Given the age that most people engaged in combat (teens to twenties) these points on the skeletal system have not fully fused and have a fair amount of give that if struck could cause fratures and micro-fractures capable of causing serious internal bleeding and a defacto delayed death effects.