Is karate really that bad ?

[Neuro]

I have practiced karate, kung-fu, judo, bjj and boxing for about 17 years and I consider all these arts very effective forms of self-defense, each one on its own "battlefields".

Recently, I have read a lot of forums where people have a very bad impression of karate.

I practiced Wado-Ryu and progressively advanced within the system, until reaching the full contact, standing and ground sparring stage.

We had friedly "gashukus kumites" with other "dojos", who practiced Shotokan, Goju-Ryu, Uechi-Ryu and Kyokushin styles, and our team always did very well in all of them. We also faced 2 judo dojos and 2 kung-fu kwoons (Choy li Fut and Monkey Style) with similar results.

Please note these were not tag tournaments, but full contact sparring with groundwork permitted, with fighters wearing no protection, except for a thin cushion glove. The only restrictions were strikes to the eyes, throat and joints. Joint manipulation and locks were permitted, as well as throws, sweeps, striking standing and on the ground, elbows and knees.

Therefore, I find that my karate training was very valuable.

Some of my friends only practiced that (Wado) for many years and still they were and are very effective fighters.

Is karate really that bad ?
Why ?

=====

Just for the record :

As I mentioned I've trained karate, but also kung-fu, judo, brazilian jiu-jitsu and boxing.

However, I aked this question because some of the folks who where in my karate classes and trained exclusively on it, were and still are very capable of defending themselves in a real life threatning situation.

But I can't disagree that the vast majority of karate schools out there are completely unrealistic, robotic, sport oriented and narrow minded.



=======
Traditional grammar will never work in a real conversation ...

[Middlemoor]

It's not bad. These guys like to badmouth it on the basis that thier training is more complete than Karate, or that the techniques are applied robotically with no thought as to context.

Essentially, they're nutriders with a grudge.

[sanchin]

I practice Wado-Ryu and think it's a very capable system, if taught in a realistic way. The people on this forum who slag off karate usually base their opinions on some Mc Dojo's they've seen, rather than on the art itself.

Any art can be made to look useless if taught and practiced by muppets.

[Goojeanleans]

Any old martial art is usually pretty good. Over years they tend to incorporate techniques to make them "more complete", and after years and years they become effective martial art systems.

The misconception people have is that somehow traditional arts have become outdated. Why is that? The current generation always seems to think that they are the only ones innovating. Innovation has been going on in the martial arts for hundreds of years. Has fist-fighting really changed much in the last 10 years? How about 50 years? 100 years? 500 years?

The same way we criticize our technique and think "Geez, that didn't really work too well against that grappler!" or "He saw my kick coming a mile away, maybe I better try something else." is the same way poeple have been criticizing their technique in traditional martial arts for years.

Who would you rather buy a car from? A guy who decided to just make his first car? What happens when all the bugs from his first run of engineering a car show up? Wouldn't you rather buy a car from a company that has been in the business for many years, has made many mistakes, and learned from them and fixed them?

[Xuanlong Xian]

I agree that the idea of MA "evolving" is nonsense, since people have been training to fuck each other up for millennia.

[Xuanlong Xian]

Actually, let me qualify that. The really sophisticated systems like Internal MA did take a long time to develop. What I meant is that modern MMA does not represent a technical advance over TMA. If a random caveman decided to figure out the best way to punch, and experimented over and over, the results would probably look a lot more like boxing than, say, Wing Chun. Boxing represents a more universal level of understanding. That TMA developed "counter-intuitive" punching styles **in a full-contact environment** suggests that, when trained according to corrent and authentic principles, they are at least as effective.

[PizDoff]

"But I can't disagree that the vast majority of karate schools out there are completely unrealistic, robotic, sport oriented and narrow minded."
that's the problem


those dojos make fighters who are crap, therefore people understand the dojo is crap, and conclude the art is crap....

that's just one of the factors

--
Hard work, Patience, Dedication.

[Boyd]

Karate's far from irredeemable. Unlike, say, Eagle Claw, there's not much that's wrong with it at the fundamental level, outside of hard training (which, obviously, varies between dojos).

Humans rule. Dolphins can suck it.

[Kensai]

But Boyd, surely Eagle Claw can be saved. Especially against MMA fighters that have particully thin skin?

[Nihilanthic]

Its how you train it that matters, I suppose. The reason I'd recomment MT before Karate is because I KNOW for MT you're going to spar hard, condition hard, and do lots of drills you can apply - and handle being hit while you do so. You really block or parry or TAKE the punches, you really hit the other guy. You throw that roundhouse into that bag or stack of tires like you were trying to chop a tree down, and get a strong shin. You really parry thrusting kicks away from you, like a front or side. You really get into clinching drills. You really throw knees (into the pads) from a clinch. You really hit those mitts with your hands. You really kick and elbow the thai pads. If you drop your guard the pad holder smacks you one, or just at random to make sure you keep a good guard. THAT is quality training. And I didn't even go into the damn conditioning!

In Karate, you got so much multiplicity you could end up doing ANYTHING. I've ran across schools that disdain actual violence and thus don't have actual contact sparring... geh. Some do the whole kick above waist punch to torso thing. I personally hated that. Taught me bad habits and made me a pussy for headshots for a while. Some might allow low-kicks, or sweeps or whatever.

Kyoukoshin does everything to the body and legs, but only kicks to the head. Thats better than no elbows or knees, all techniques above the waist. But you're still asking for a boxing lesson if you go up against someone with training - and you should take some boxing anyway.


THAT is why a lot of people don't like Karate. The lact of applied training techniques. I know a lot of people might start plugging kata - but I'm going to throw them a curve ball. Applied training like MT does can't be replaced with Kata.


Oh, Btw... where can you learn (or have a good chance, rather) ungloved punching techniques? parries and dodges work the same naturally, but you don't have oven mitts on your opponent or yourself - so some blocks seem like they wouldn't work too well. Or, maybe they would but would just hurt from knuckles digging in.

<Me> John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? <John> *smacks me*
<John> I'd have to smack you sometime...

[PizDoff]

?

i come from a style that doesn't directly "block" the HARD knuckles, as you wish

--
Hard work, Patience, Dedication.

"I ate a cow once and she fell in love with me." Posted by WTDude August 01 2003.

[Tiger-of-Shaolin]

I haven't practiced Wado-Ryu Karate.In Germany the Shotokan Karate style is the most popular Karate style and it's also one of the most popular martial arts styles.I had an orange belt in Shotokan which okay means nothing.I wasn't convinced that Shotokan was a good style so after 3 years i gave it up.Later i practiced Weng Chun Kung Fu.Today i have a blue belt in Weng Chun and i can beat up Shotokan black belts.So would you really say the Shotokan style is effective???
No strategy no good techniques no ..no ...no . Yeah i have to admit i critisize the martial art of Karate very much.But i think i have good reasons. I'm 5'11" 155lbs that's nearly nothing fot a martial artist. But i have no problem fighting Shotokan black belts being around 6'3" 250 lbs. I have done i very often because many Karate black belts came to the Kung Fu school where i practice. Shotokan is one of the worst martial arts styles.And yeah i say Shotokan is really that bad.

[Goojeanleans]

Maybe your instructor wasn't very good.

Everyone can agree that a good instructor can make a shitty martial art a good one, right?

Trying a style and deciding it all must be shit is like getting robbed by a black guy so you hate a black people. That isn't very wise is it?
Maybe you just had a bad experience.

You are also a blue belt in Wing Chun that has 3 years of training in Shotokan. So really, you are a blue belt+ with more training than a black belt in Shotokan possibly. Of course you can beat them, based on years training you're a higher rank than they are! Don't pat yourself on the back too much. When you meet a shotokan guy who has trained as many years as you have he may just wax the floor with you!

[Tiger-of-Shaolin]

Okay Goojeanleans it was a bit too hard from me. I personally don't like the martial art of Karate. But as i already admitted i only practiced the Shotokan style so i can only say that i think Shotokan is bad.

That's where you are right.But i think we were both wrong.I have fought against Shotokan black belts who had more than 15 years training and for me it wasn't very difficult to beat them.I have fought Shotokan black belts who had a lot more martial arts training than me.

There is also another fact to consider i only fought Shotokan black belts i never fought Wado-Ryu,Kyokushin,Seidokaikan or Ukidokan black belts.Perhaps these Karate styles are a lot better than the Shotokan style.

I don't think a good instructor can make a shitty martial art a good one.Do you really believe that ???

[Stold3]

No belt can determine skill level, especially in this day and age. You have to find a black belt that earned it the hard way--Getting the shit beat out of him and learning from it.

At least, that's what I gather from how karateka's train.

[baltasargracian]

yeah KARATE is shit, just ask the MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS of people who practice it (obviously they are all just stupid).