This Could Potentially Be a Breakthrough in the Destruction of MA Bullshido

[chaosexmachina]

http://www9.nationalgeographic.com/channel/fightscience/images/gallery/photo_deathpunch.jpg
CGI shows how the dreaded Dim Mak, or Ninja Death Punch, compresses the chest fast enough to stop the human heart.

WTF!? Dim mak? I'm losing faith in the 'science' of this show.

[LolodesBois]

Why ? you doubt that a full force punch to the chest area is going to compress it enough to stop it (even if it's for a microsecond...) ?

I think that the problem with dim mak is not that it has no effect it's just that it's something to hit a certain point on a non moving dummy but something else entirely to do on a moving oponent that is also highly conditioned to been hit.

I think this show is going to be good to explaination of force generation and other things.

now will they actually record strike force while sparing is something else.

[RatRun]

Dim mak (http://podcast.nationalgeographic.com/~r/fight-science/~3/11364993/fightscience_pc5_scientificperspective.mp3) 4mins in ..

[chaosexmachina]

I think that the problem with dim mak is not that it has no effect it's just that it's something to hit a certain point on a non moving dummy but something else entirely to do on a moving oponent that is also highly conditioned to been hit.

This is exactly why.

My problem is they're making it sound uberdeadly, but it's really not at all.

[LolodesBois]

Well that's marketing for you, they do need a lot of people to watch it :-)

It wil be cool to 'see' the effect of proper punch though ;-)

Of course the added special effect like the one for the tai knee kick is too much, showing the CGI people some real fights would show them that these knee are thrown all the time yet you don't see many tai fighters being blown away by them. even if you're data says it the same as being in a car crash.

[LolodesBois]

HO yeah and removing BS terms like Ninja death punch would go a long way too...

[Nathan McScary]

Haven't seen any talk on this one yet, so I guess I'll start.

Overall it was much more realistic and anti-bullshido than I think many posters suspected, but it was still far from unflawed. Here is a rundown:

The Good:

- After testing a variety of punches from different styles, their data showed that generally speaking, boxing has the best "knockout punch". The verticle kung fu one inch punch proved to be the weakest.

- A Muay Thai knee from the clinch proved to be the most effective leg attach. They even went so far as to call Tai Kwon Do's spinning back kick, Kung Fu's jumping doublekick, and karate's jumping side kick as 'flashy, but not very effective.'

- Nunchuks and three sectional staff were called unstable and impractical because they recoil too much when actually hitting something.

- Rickson Gracie put on a good display of BJJ. They hyped him up as being undefeated, but thankfully didn't quite elevate him to his godlike status that he sometimes gets. They also went on to talk about how a well rounded fighter should know how to grapple.

- They talked about size actually mattering in a fist fight. More mass = more power (on fighters of equal fitness level).




The Bullshido:

- Ninjitsu was given WAY to much credability. They seemed to focus on it way too much and made it seem like it was the ultimate in martial arts.

- They talked about the dim mak. While there explainations seemed more scientific than most, it was still pretty rediculous (hammar fist to sternum = heart stoppage?!).

- WAY too much talk about weapons. Seriously, a good 45 minutes of it were just about weapons. Apparently the kitana is the greatest thing to ever happen in the history of the world.

- While I give them props for their studies and feel that most of their force testing was generally pretty accurate, it was still flawed. IE only one master from each disapline was used to represent a style. The skinny asian kung fu guy looked like he was about 150lbs soaking wet, whereas the 200 lb+ shirtless tai kwon do dude looked like a natural body builder, so of course the latter is going to be able to strike harder in most cases.

Anyone else catch it? Thoughts? I do believe it reairs in about a week.

[Doctor X]

- They talked about the dim mak. While there explainations seemed more scientific than most, it was still pretty rediculous (hammar fist to sternum = heart stoppage?!).

This is covered somewhere in the morass that is thread on Dim Mak and "death touch," but this is a variation of the "precordial thump"--it does not take too much to impart energy to the heart. The "thump" works in a critical period of the heart cycle. It can also potentially correct an arrhythmia. Where this got "press" is from a few thin unfortunates who suffered a baseball to the chest. This happens often enough that a few just so happened to get hit at the critical period causing ventricular fibrillation which is "cardiac arrest."

Bottom line is if any one thinks they are going to hit during this period they are the probably also think they can levitate.

--J.D.

[kravchick]

This is covered somewhere in the morass that is thread on Dim Mak and "death touch," but this is a variation of the "precordial thump"--it does not take too much to impart energy to the heart. The "thump" works in a critical period of the heart cycle. It can also potentially correct an arrhythmia. Where this got "press" is from a few thin unfortunates who suffered a baseball to the chest. This happens often enough that a few just so happened to get hit at the critical period causing ventricular fibrillation which is "cardiac arrest."

Bottom line is if any one thinks they are going to hit during this period they are the probably also think they can levitate.

--J.D.
I had always wondered if the "dim mak" was a version of a precordial thump. I used to be a Paramedic, and had been told that the thump *could* stop the heart. But, knowing the physiology, I'd not really consider it a sure enough thing to try it as a defense technique.

My hubby and I watched the show, and some of it was fascinating. He told me that in addition to the precordial thump physiology, there's a nerve bundle much like the one in the brachial area, that contributes to the effectiveness of the "dim mak" that was shown.

I'm not quite sure what to think of the "dim mak" stuff, but I'd probably lean toward the 'kernel of truth in there somewhere'. (ETA: But of course, that implies that one must wade through the muck to find it.)

What I found more fascinating than anything else was the bio-mechanics of the strikes. As a MA n00b, that was fascinating. I've been having sheer hell with staning kicks and all punches, and seeing the physiology broken down, I can see what I'm supposed to be doing. Now, whether or not I can duplicate it.... :-D The "kinetic linking" was absolutely incredible. Of course, it's probably old hat to everyone else here, but I loved it.

[Doctor X]

I had always wondered if the "dim mak" was a version of a precordial thump. I used to be a Paramedic, and had been told that the thump *could* stop the heart. But, knowing the physiology, I'd not really consider it a sure enough thing to try it as a defense technique.

To be honest, I think people believed in this fantasy then searched for justification for it. What descriptions one reads are delayed or something different then a good hard shot to the chest. It is always problematic to try to find a real foundation for myth. Certainly you are correct. The other thing to consider is that success depends on how much "stuff" is between the blow and the heart--why it is young teens getting blown away by line-drives and not Mongo the Merciless.

He told me that in addition to the precordial thump physiology, there's a nerve bundle much like the one in the brachial area, that contributes to the effectiveness of the "dim mak" that was shown.

"Brachial area?" If you mean the "brachial plexus" that is rather deep. If you could strike that hard enough to, literally, stun the nerve you could do far more effective damage methinks.

I'm not quite sure what to think of the "dim mak" stuff, but I'd probably lean toward the 'kernel of truth in there somewhere'.

It is unmitigated crap, certainly as promulgated by the purveyors of its putrescence particularly [Stop it!--Ed.] Dilman. They are engaging in variations of "slaying the soul" suggestion that you see in any good revival tend. Again, televangelists can knock the creduloid out from across the room!

Is there a physiologic basis for such beyond, "he is faking it?" Yes, one can certainly do that--the classic faint. Will that work on an opponent who is trying to do you harm? Absolutely not.

One has to be serious: if the stuff worked why is it not used in competitions? Seems, to me, it is perfect for a grappler--why bother with this rolling on the floor, sweating, and gay jokes when you can just tap Appendix Warmer 34.3 and cause the guy to, I do not now, explode or something?

You already know the excuses.

I've been having sheer hell with staning kicks and all punches, and seeing the physiology broken down, I can see what I'm supposed to be doing. Now, whether or not I can duplicate it.... :-D The "kinetic linking" was absolutely incredible. Of course, it's probably old hat to everyone else here, but I loved it.

Why people HERE preach "live training" and the like. I am "invincible" against air. Try hitting a few bags and pads that do not move much. Then try hitting a moving person who does not want to be hit but wants to hit you. Great way to learn why bad mechanics are bad.

--J.D.

[kravchick]

"Brachial area?" If you mean the "brachial plexus" that is rather deep. If you could strike that hard enough to, literally, stun the nerve you could do far more effective damage methinks.

Probably. I didn't feel like digging out any of my anatomy books to get more specific with the location. (So, my apologies for the completely inaccurate terms) To me, it looked like they were actually striking to the armpit, but my hubby said I wasn't seeing it correctly. This was during the ninja part of the show, and I don't give a lot of credence to all the 'stun em with a nerve blow' crap, so I wasn't paying that close of attention. He insisted the strike was actually to a spot in the area of the bicep, right about the place that aeons ago we were taught in our First Aid classes to set up a tourniquet for the brachial artery.

I agree that if it were really all that reliable, we'd see it used a lot more. Though would you really use a potential kill shot in a competetive match? I wouldn't think that would be cool? Though there are supposed to be all these non-lethal nerve techniques that I think we would see.

Why people HERE preach "live training" and the like. I am "invincible" against air. Try hitting a few bags and pads that do not move much. Then try hitting a moving person who does not want to be hit but wants to hit you. Great way to learn why bad mechanics are bad.

--J.D.
We do practice against moving people in class. But I think I need to get a bag and do some static work here at home to get some of the mechanics down. When I don't have the basics down, the "live training" can be a bit overwhelming

[Doctor X]

Probably. I didn't feel like digging out any of my anatomy books to get more specific with the location. (So, my apologies for the completely inaccurate terms)
It is not a problem; the terms are just geography--if one is using "Schennectady" to mean "Paris" it will get people lost.

To me, it looked like they were actually striking to the armpit, but my hubby said I wasn't seeing it correctly.
Ah! t3h d34ly armpit strike! This area is sensitive when you sit there and feel yourself or have someone do it. From a practical standpoint, good luck hitting it for real, particularly if the person has on, say, clothes! Even then your likelihood of stunning the nerves of the brachial plexus is remote.

Now as discussed on the other thread, with a knife, you could sever the axillary artery and watch the guy bleed to death. That is not quite the same thing, of course!

No, you cannot knock a person out with such a strike other than the flim-flam described above and below. A lot of "sensitive" points on the body become far less sensitive during the adrenaline dump of actual conflict--as many find out!

He insisted the strike was actually to a spot in the area of the bicep, right about the place that aeons ago we were taught in our First Aid classes to set up a tourniquet for the brachial artery.
Well punching a muscle can hurt the muscle. Other than that, it will not knock someone out. To knock someone out you either have to:
1. Globally Assault Both Cerebral Hemispheres: drugs, cut of blood flow, listening to country-western music, et cetera

2. Functionally Separate the Hemispheres from the Brain Stem "Trigger": basic knock-out punch.In fact, most fighting and sports knock-outs are variations of the second rather than the first. Hit a guy in the head hard enough and you can get both mechanisms! The faint is an example of the first--drop in blood pressure, drop in flow to brain, temporary shut down. Things such as chokes and even cardiac arrest work so fast because the brain cannot tolerate a lack of blood flow.

The point of that blather is striking the arm is not going to do that unless you trigger a much slower faint response. Again . . . good luck!!

Though would you really use a potential kill shot in a competetive match?
Frankly, they do it all the time. Punching to the head can always, potentially, kill you. More relevant, proponents of this nonsense practice it all the time--"light force knockouts" and the like.

So why--if they can control it--they not just do that?

Again the excuses . . . "t00 t3h d34ly."

Though there are supposed to be all these non-lethal nerve techniques that I think we would see.
Exactly! If you search for some of the discussions on Dilman and Dim Mak you will--I am not making this up--read of all sorts of excuses as to why the techniques do not work--like your opponent lifted his big toe and . . . heh! Heh! BWA!HA!HA! . . . your opponent's tongue was touching the roof of his mouth!!

What they do in a "dojo" is circle-jerk: they start with the myth and support it through example. It is compliant training taken to its ridiculous extreme. It is a revival meeting, not a martial art.

We do practice against moving people in class. But I think I need to get a bag and do some static work here at home to get some of the mechanics down. When I don't have the basics down, the "live training" can be a bit overwhelming
Yeah, but it reminds you why you are "there." Just being able to stand "toe-to-toe" and be able to react to a thinking person trying to strike you is a major step that the "we don't believe in sparing . . . it is bad!" Woos never take . . . until it is too late.

A search of the various striking threads can help you approach bag work and pads. Remember, if you cannot hit a relatively stationary bag effectively, your likelihood of striking a moving malevolent target effectively is remote.

--J.D.

[Edited for the codes . . . the codes. . . .--Ed.]

[datdamnmachine]

I still haven't watched hour two since I'm scarred of the rest of the crap that might get spewed by this show; I had such high hope two. I won't lie, there is a nervevain? in the inside of your ankle, the more informed folks here can tell you what it is called. If it is hit it can since some serious pain into your leg and up your thigh. It's like hitting your funny bone in your arm. It hurts and it stings but the thing is, I was in class grappling and I hit it and I was still able to continue on and I think I got the submission on the other guy as well. Now if I could do that in class and my life isn't in danger do you really think I'm going to worry about that tingling feeling if someone's trying to bash my head in? Also of note, he didn't hit that point, I did with the heal of my other foot trying to shrimp out of a bad position. THAT'S IT! You can only perform the death touch if you do it to yourself, kinda like only being able to get off while masterbating! Yeah, I know, I went there, but I figured it was a graphic enough picture for you to get the idea of how silly it sounds.

[Hitman]

Here's my woman's artistic interpretation of the show:

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c223/quietprofessional/ninjerboy.jpg

[BSDaemon]

Your woman is awesome!

[Doctor X]

Awesome!

--J.D.