Hapkido

[Fighty McGee]

I would like to start the Hapkido thread with a few (mostly) undisputed facts, followed up by suggestions for discussion/investigation.

Facts, mostly undisputed by the Hapkido community (feel free to dispute, if you have better info):
1. Hapkido was started by Choi Yong Sul.
2. Choi Yong Sul learned *some* kind of Japanese Jujutsu while in Japan.
3. Choi's art was originally called various names other than Hapkido, and had a more Japanese identity-- among them were Yawara, Yul Sul, Hapki Yu Sul, Yu Kwon Sul, and others. Some suggest that he also called it Daigo Ryu (or Dai Dong Ryu) Yu Sul, stressing it's possible Daito Ryu roots.
4. Choi met, and was sponsored by Suh Bok-Sup, a 1st Dan Judoka. Early Hapkido therefore has many counters to Judo attacks.
5. It was observed that many of the kicking techniques were added within the first few years of larger development of Hapkido by various people other than Choi, as well as many Judo techninques, and many of the more esoteric hand strikes, although Choi vigorously used Atemi in his early versions of the art (Yawara, et al).

Some points of contention:
1. Hapkido is directly derived from Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu.
2. Choi was a servant of Sokaku Takeda.
3. Choi learned Aikijujutsu from Takeda directly, and had fought as a champion in minor challenge matches for him.
4. Choi learned Aikijujutsu by watching Takeda and his students, but since the feet were obscured by the Hakamas they wore, Hapkido’s footwork is different.
5. Hapkido’s footwork is different because of the inclusion of kicks and circular striking techniques.
6. Hapkido’s kicks are of Tae Kyon origin (some are attributed to Temple monks, and Taoist Lee).
7. Hapkido’s kicks are of the same origin as Tae Kwon Do (Japanese/Okinawan Karate, Shotokan).
8. Choi does not appear on the Daito Ryu roster kept by Takeda because of his lowly status as a Korean house boy.
9. Choi learned Aikijujutsu from Takeda’s wife, thereby not appearing on the roster. Claims are made of studying directly under Takeda because of the inherently male-centric Korean and Japanese cultures.
10. Choi learned a completely Korean (and eons old) standup grappling and striking art, not Aikijujutsu.
11. Ji Han Jae, an early student of Choi's, could more aptly be considered the founder of what we today recognize as Hapkido. He added much of the kicking, striking, and boxing defense techniques. He came up with the name Hapkido, which Choi later adopted as well.



Some arts directly related to Hapkido (note- "sul" is often spelled "sool" and vice versa):

Hwarang Do
Hwarang Mu Sul
Hwarang Yu Sul
Yu Sul
Kuk Sul
Kuk Sul Won
Kuk Sul Hapkido
Hankido
Han Moo Do
HoSinSul
Viet No Vuem
Sin Moo Hapkido
Others?...


Additions? Contentions? Affirmations?.......







Edited by - Fighty McGee on June 10 2003 15:14:01

[rmclain]

The true relationship of Choi and Takeda has been debated for a long time, and I doubt we will ever know the truth.

Choi could have started teaching his art at Suh Bok-Sup's brewery and claimed he made it up or that he learned it from some monk living in the mountains in Korea, or something. Seems like there are some "nuts" out there making these (untraceable) claims even today for the foundation of their martial arts.

Instead he[Choi] gave a traceable source and credit to the art he knew. Interestingly, Hapkido greatly resembles Daito Ryu Aiki jujitsu in principle and technique.

But, the direct relationship between Choi and Takeda will be disputed forever, probably.

R. McLain

[Samuel Browning]

There was probably some connection since Hapkido's founder was unusual among Korean martial artists by forthrightly claiming a Japanese teacher at a time when the Japanese were quite unpopular on Korea. (The Japanese were not particularly gentle in their occupation of Korea) If there is a problem in his story it probabably is with the claimed closeness of his connection to Takeda. Did Choi make these assertions while Takeda was still alive?

[rmclain]

Choi left Japan before Takeda's death.

Takeda died in 1943, and Choi didn't start teaching in Korea until around 1947 or 48.

[miguksaram]

There are many versions of the Choi-Takeda meeting. Some say he was an adopted son, if you look at the viewpoint that Japanese thought of themselves as a "divine race", Takeda may have grown found of Choi, but he could never make Choi his son.

Prior to the name Hapkido, the style was called Yawara. What Choi taught was Daito-ryu Jujitsu. Even though Japan and the Japanese were not very popular, their martial arts still were. Yudo, Kumdo and Karate were still very popular amongst the Koreans. There were no kicking techniques in Yawara. It is said that those were introduced later by Ji Han-jae, who supposedly learned Taekkyon under Toaist Lee. Unfortunately there is no proof. Ji Han-jae also boasts that it was he who gave the art its name of Hapkido.

If I remember correctly Choi left Japan because of Takeda's death. At that time he went to Taegu (his home town) and that is where he met with Mr. Sup. It is true that neither Choi's name or Asoa Yoshida's name (Choi's Japanese name) appeared on any roll book for Takeda's school.


Jeremy M. Talbott
http://www.koreanma.homestead.com/index.html
http://www.martialscience.homestead.com/home.html

[Fighty McGee]

In this interview with Choi, he talks about his abduction to Japan and training under Takeda. http://www.rimshapkido.com/ysc.html (not copied and pasted here due to copyright)

Some of the veracity of his claims in terms of adoption by Takeda are disputed, but it could reasonably be considered that Choi felt he was "adopted" and treated as such, w/o actual legal adoption taking place.

[miguksaram]

True...accordingly it is said that he was adopted/abducted by a Japanese business man who grew found of him while in Korea. He was abandoned in Japan due to his protesting over being taken there.

In an interview with the Grandmaster Suh, Bok Sup, Grandmaster Choi's first student, Master Mike Wollmershauser states that Grandmaster Choi showed a picture of Takeda Sensei and said "This is my surrogate father." (Note: I recently took a look at my site and saw that the link to the interview to GM Suh, Bok-sup has been deleted. I will search for the updated link for this document.) So Choi, himself felt a bond to Sokaku.

Jeremy M. Talbott
http://www.koreanma.homestead.com/index.html
http://www.martialscience.homestead.com/home.html

[Freddy]

I doubt that Hapkido is of Korean origin(originally). It seems mostly likely Japanese. Apparently there is no Chinese influnce it its techniques. The joint locks and throws are in most part Japanese. With Korea in its location you would think there would be at least some Chinese influnce. My belief is that all current Korean Martial arts were created after the Korean war(corrrect me if I'm wrong). Some of the arts that were taught in Korea were Karate, judo and most likely jujitsu.

"Do what thou wilt is the whole of the Law"

[Fighty McGee]

Freddy, there are some hand strikes that have Chinese influence. Also, Hapkido has many Chin Na type pain infliction and compliance grabs, more typical of Chinese systems than Japanese. Most undoubtably, Hapkido is Japanese (Aiki)Jujutsu derived, but with Korean and Chinese techniques added for flavor.

[Dochter]

While HKD has undoubtedly been affected and influenced by TKD one of the main statements is that many of its kicks came from Taekyon(sp).

As a point of interest concerning the veracity of this claim I worked out with Wastrel today (Wastrel practiced Taekyon in Korea) and one of his kick appeared to be essentially an instep twisting kick. Neither of us has seen such a kick in tkd (might not be saying much) and it is a rather unique kick.

Do practitioners of other styles have something similar to a twisting kick?


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My single chopstick is bad at serving soup, cutting steaks and basting roasts and chickens. Besides that it owns.

[rmclain]

My teacher became good friends with Song Duk Ki in the early 1960's in Korea and had a close relationship with him until Mr. Song's death. Mr. Song was one of the only Koreans that preserved Tae Kyon following the Japanese Occupation. Mr. Song taught my teacher Tae Kyon kicking.

I watched a video from December 2002 when my teacher visited the Tae Kyon Association in Korea. They invited him as a special guest to teach them and watch their demo - because of his relationship to Song Duk Ki. The kicking the students of the Taekyon Association demonstrated were very similar to the kicking techniques that Ji Han Jae teaches as part of his Hapkido system. I've trained directly from Ji Han Jae in the past and learned the kicks he teaches in Sin Moo Hapkido.

So, it seemed to me that Ji Han Jae's Hapkido has some legitimate kicking techniques from Tae Kyon. I'm always leary when someone gives credit to their techniques coming from someone that is untraceable(Taoist Lee). But, it seems there is some truth as to the Hapkido kicks(at least some of them) coming from Tae Kyon.

R. McLain

[miguksaram]

Freddy,

It has already been established that HKD is originally from Japan's Dito-ryu Jujitsu. Now if you want to go further back then you could find a Chineses connection (minus Bruce Lee) to Jujitsu in the form of Chin-na. There were arts that were practiced in Korea prior to japanese occupation, but they were not very popular due to the fact that the country turned to confusinism (sp?) which looked down upon fighting arts and persued more schollary achievments. What these arts were is anyone's guess since most books and historical documents concerning Korea was burned during the Japanese occupation. This is why there is such a huge influx of bullshit martial art history coming from Korea. People have a hard time proving otherwise.

"While HKD has undoubtedly been affected and influenced by TKD one of the main statements is that many of its kicks came from Taekyon(sp)."

Well if you believe Ji Han-jae then it was Taekkyon that influenced that kicking of HKD.

There is a twisting kick that is used in TKD. Not many people use it though. It is a great technique to get underneath your opponents gaurd for a groin shot or smack them in the face if you are flexible enough.


Jeremy M. Talbott
http://www.koreanma.homestead.com/index.html
http://www.martialscience.homestead.com/home.html

[Freddy]

Fighty McGee I have not seen any chin na types of joints locks in hapkido in any book or from an old instructor. If you have some good info please suggest it. I have seen mostly Japanese jujitsu types of joint locks but not Chinese chin na. They are different.
As for Chinese strikes I'm not totally sure. I know Kano in his Judo book gave examples of different strikes that are use in Chinese arts but I dont know if I can conclude to say it is exclusive to Chinese arts only??

"Do what thou wilt is the whole of the Law"

[Freddy]

It seems that chin na is much more complicated than jujitsu joint locks and has many counter chin na techniques. I have a few books on Chin na and a few on jujitsu and hapkido. I think a pretty good book on chin na is by Yang Jwing Ming.

"Do what thou wilt is the whole of the Law"

[Fighty McGee]

Freddy, I can name at least a few types of grab/lock techniques that do not express Jujutsu roots, in Hapkido. Whether one would want to say they have Chinese or Korean roots, the similarities to Chinese techniques are apparent. For instance there are muscle separation grabs in Hapkido, that are similar to Chin Na. There are pressure point pain/distraction grabs, such as grabbing the muscle/nerve bundle at the top of the forearm to effect a release of a grab/choke. There is a collarbone grab, used often in conjunction with an armbar or throw, or as a pain and distraction technique. There are other such techniques that I have not seen duplicated in Jujutsu arts. Of course, the majority of the Hapkido syllabus is based on Jujutsu/Aikijujtsu technique variants, but there are still many elements that one could consider "continental" in origin.

[Yamabushi]

There is a long and interesting thread about Hapkido and Choi Yong Sul's connection to Daito-Ryu here (http://65.119.177.201/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=000562&p=) on the forums at the Aikido Journal.

The general consensus seems to be that Choi's claim is 'dubious', although there is evidence of at least one Korean having a teaching certificate in Daito-Ryu (although that post-dates the death of Takeda).

Charles